Examining the LDS plan of salvation

[theplains]

I was reading some LDS teachings on the plan of salvation.

"Before we were born, we lived with Heavenly Father as His spirit children. In the Council in 
Heaven, the Father presented to us His plan of salvation, and Jesus Christ was chosen to be 
our Savior. Satan sought to amend the plan, taking away our agency, and he and his followers 
were cast out. We accepted our Father’s plan and chose to follow Jesus Christ."
(source: video - https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/ap/plan-of-salvation/premortal?lang=eng#d )

Some other teachings are found in the training manual (Religion 250 - Jesus Christ and the 
Everlasting Gospel - Teacher's Manual, 2015):

Page 7 - "[Jesus Christ] was apparently the only one sufficiently humble and willing in the
premortal council to be foreordained to [bring about the infinite Atonement]" (“The Atonement 
of Jesus Christ,” Ensign, Mar. 2008, 35).

"At the first organization in heaven we were all present and saw the Savior chosen and appointed 
and the plan of salvation made, and we sanctioned it" (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: 
Joseph Smith [2007], 209).

Page 64 - "We could remember the Savior’s premortal life and all that we know him to have done 
as the great Jehovah, creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. We could 
remember that even in the Grand Council of Heaven he loved us and was wonderfully strong."

Page 79 - "In our preexistent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain
agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it."

From an Ensign magazine:

"Satan proposed to save all the spirit children of God, assuring that result by removing their 
power to choose and thus eliminating the possibility of sin. When Satan’s plan was rejected, he 
and the spirits who followed him opposed the Father’s plan and were cast out" (Ensign, November 
1993, Elder Oaks, The Great Plan of Happiness).

In the same Ensign magazine, it also said, "It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden 
in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a 
transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam 
showed his wisdom by doing the same."

A few questions come to mind.

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother
Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or 
hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam 
were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

Thanks,
Jim

[CV75]

49 minutes ago, theplains said:

A few questions come to mind.

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother
Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or 
hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam 
were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

Thanks,
Jim

1) I don’t think that would have been much of a discussion point. He was doing the right thing by the Father and by us, though.

2) I think because they were from the start one flesh and could only perceive reality, or the truth of things, as one. When she partook, they got on different wavelengths and were no longer of one mind, making it so that neither could perceive what was happening until Adam also partook (she could not un-partake), allowing them to jointly realize their new condition. Happens a lot in marriage!

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

I was reading some LDS teachings on the plan of salvation.

"Before we were born, we lived with Heavenly Father as His spirit children. In the Council in 
Heaven, the Father presented to us His plan of salvation, and Jesus Christ was chosen to be 
our Savior. Satan sought to amend the plan, taking away our agency, and he and his followers 
were cast out. We accepted our Father’s plan and chose to follow Jesus Christ."
(source: video - https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/ap/plan-of-salvation/premortal?lang=eng#d )

Some other teachings are found in the training manual (Religion 250 - Jesus Christ and the 
Everlasting Gospel - Teacher's Manual, 2015):

Page 7 - "[Jesus Christ] was apparently the only one sufficiently humble and willing in the
premortal council to be foreordained to [bring about the infinite Atonement]" (“The Atonement 
of Jesus Christ,” Ensign, Mar. 2008, 35).

"At the first organization in heaven we were all present and saw the Savior chosen and appointed 
and the plan of salvation made, and we sanctioned it" (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: 
Joseph Smith [2007], 209).

Page 64 - "We could remember the Savior’s premortal life and all that we know him to have done 
as the great Jehovah, creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. We could 
remember that even in the Grand Council of Heaven he loved us and was wonderfully strong."

Page 79 - "In our preexistent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain
agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it."

From an Ensign magazine:

"Satan proposed to save all the spirit children of God, assuring that result by removing their 
power to choose and thus eliminating the possibility of sin. When Satan’s plan was rejected, he 
and the spirits who followed him opposed the Father’s plan and were cast out" (Ensign, November 
1993, Elder Oaks, The Great Plan of Happiness).

In the same Ensign magazine, it also said, "It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden 
in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a 
transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam 
showed his wisdom by doing the same."

A few questions come to mind.

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother
Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or 
hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam 
were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

Thanks,
Jim

Yes, we knew Jesus Christ was the great Jehovah (God) before we accepted the Father's will that he, Jehovah, should be our Savior in mortality, even the Lamb of God who was foreordained to atone for our sins before the world was created. And the Book of Moses also testifies Christ was Jehovah, the Word of the Father's power, when all of the spirit sons and daughters of God were created in the premortal world (you would call them angels).

Edited January 25, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

I was reading some LDS teachings on the plan of salvation.

"Before we were born, we lived with Heavenly Father as His spirit children. In the Council in 
Heaven, the Father presented to us His plan of salvation, and Jesus Christ was chosen to be 
our Savior. Satan sought to amend the plan, taking away our agency, and he and his followers 
were cast out. We accepted our Father’s plan and chose to follow Jesus Christ."
(source: video - https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/ap/plan-of-salvation/premortal?lang=eng#d )

Some other teachings are found in the training manual (Religion 250 - Jesus Christ and the 
Everlasting Gospel - Teacher's Manual, 2015):

Page 7 - "[Jesus Christ] was apparently the only one sufficiently humble and willing in the
premortal council to be foreordained to [bring about the infinite Atonement]" (“The Atonement 
of Jesus Christ,” Ensign, Mar. 2008, 35).

"At the first organization in heaven we were all present and saw the Savior chosen and appointed 
and the plan of salvation made, and we sanctioned it" (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: 
Joseph Smith [2007], 209).

Page 64 - "We could remember the Savior’s premortal life and all that we know him to have done 
as the great Jehovah, creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. We could 
remember that even in the Grand Council of Heaven he loved us and was wonderfully strong."

Page 79 - "In our preexistent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain
agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it."

From an Ensign magazine:

"Satan proposed to save all the spirit children of God, assuring that result by removing their 
power to choose and thus eliminating the possibility of sin. When Satan’s plan was rejected, he 
and the spirits who followed him opposed the Father’s plan and were cast out" (Ensign, November 
1993, Elder Oaks, The Great Plan of Happiness).

In the same Ensign magazine, it also said, "It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden 
in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a 
transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam 
showed his wisdom by doing the same."

A few questions come to mind.

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother
Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or 
hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam 
were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

Thanks,
Jim

By the way, this guilt by association thing is getting old. Is Christ any less divine because he grew up in a home with fallen earthly brothers and sisters? No. Is Christ any less divine because he is a member of the family of man? No. Is Christ any less divine because he called Judas, another one of Christ's human relatives, to be one of his chosen disciples? No. Is Christ also guilty of wickedness because he said imperfect human beings are his BRETHREN? No. Why does it seem anti-Mormons are all too often incapable of critical thinking?

And we can unfairly turn the tables in the same way you do us. Try this: God created Lucifer, knowing with his infinite foreknowledge that he would become the evil Satan who would create so much misery and destroy so many souls . What kind of a loving creator is God that would create the source of evil? Is he just inept or is he also a form of evil in disguise? Two can play this game.

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Freedom]

Concerning Eve in the garden, this is an ancient liturgical text and the nakedness serves a function. You should not read that she was nude, ate a banana, and then she could see she needed to put on some clothes. A better word would be naive or ignorant rather than nude. The tree represents coming of age, like reaching puberty. She realized that in order to move forward, she needed to eat the fruit, and when she ate it she realized just how ignorant she really was. When children grow up and have children of their own, their eyes are suddenly opened to how much their parents sacrificed. The garden story is Adam and Eve the archetype, not Adam and Eve the people. In Mosiah 3:16 we learn that Adam is our nature. In the LDS temple we learn that Adam and Eve represent us. Eve's access to the fruit in a sense represents women's access to the power of procreation and nurturing their children. Adams access to the tree of life represents men's stewardship over the priesthood. I find it interesting that Eve brought life, and Mary was present when Jesus was resurrected. Two women, two bookends. 

[Tacenda]

I think they tell you that the story of Adam and Eve in the temple is to be used as figurative not literal. Just heard someone today on a podcast say that they were told this in a temple class or something. 

[cdowis]

1. They did not trutst God's Plan.  Satan had a plan that appealed to them.

2. Do you have small children? f They do not see their nakedness.

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother
Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or 
hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam 
were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

Thanks,
Jim

I think they knew that although exactly what God means here isn't quite clear theologically. Traditional Christianity has an issue of the two natures of Christ where Christ is fully mortal and fully divine with a particular sense of what it means to be divine. What it means to be divine is much less developed within Mormonism. Most thinkers (although not all) tend to reject what they see as foreign Greek philosophical absolutism that came to be associated with Christian thinking. (Especially with Augustine's theology and his influence) Mormon thought nearly universally rejects creation ex nihilo or the idea that God created the universe out of nothing with an absolute ontological divide between God and beings. So for Mormons being God is much more being in harmony with him, being in communication with him, and thereby sharing his power because he trusts you. In that sense Jesus appears to be fully God in the premortal world even though Mormons would say there were some things he didn't share yet with the Father. (Such as a resurrected body)

As to why Jesus wasn't yet fully God in terms of his physical nature (as opposed to this other unity of purpose, trust, and indirect power) it was because he had to be born, be limited, overcome, and be resurrected. So in that sense Christ is becoming like the Father much as we hopefully are.

To Eve, it's hard to know how much of the story is supposed to be figurative or if you think this is at least in part figurative what it exactly means. There are numerous ways of reading the story and the Church really doesn't have a fixed view on the question.

A common way of reading the story follows certain ancient Jewish traditions where paradise or the garden of eden was in a kind of halfway position between heaven and earth or the telestial kingdom. This was a waiting place. The Jewish tradition actually also has premortal souls descending following Adam and Even. Ritually returning to heaven then passes through paradise on the way to heaven. While many Jews reject the idea of a premortal existence some do. These traditions are often part of what is terms the merkabah tradition in Judaism.

Applying the idea to the Adam and Eve story it becomes much more ritualistic although perhaps pointing towards actual events in terms of how each of us come to this world to be born in flesh. That is it's a story of how each of us fall. Each of us then eats a tree that opens our eyes towards certain thing but closes them towards others.  Many read the partaking of the fruit as granting the light of Christ which is a kind of vague moral intuition that perhaps we didn't have prior to that. But again it's not at all clear how to read the story and most ways of reading it are speculative. 

[stemelbow]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

 

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother
Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or 
hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

I don't know we have any real understanding of how this all transpired.  So I don't know. 

14 hours ago, theplains said:

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam 
were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

Thanks,
Jim

The Adam and Eve story is myth.  But with that said, it might be that she enjoyed nudity while Adam did not. 

[thesometimesaint]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

I was reading some LDS teachings on the plan of salvation.

A few questions come to mind.

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother
Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or 
hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam 
were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

Thanks,
Jim

We are all Gods. We are not spirit brothers of Satan. We are all brothers and sister from God the Father. Lucifer(Son of the Morning) chose to become Satan(The Accuser).

We don't know if she did or didn't "see it" immediately.

[JLHPROF]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother
Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or 
hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam 
were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

1. You probably shouldn't ask me that loaded a question.
But to keep my opinion simple, we misunderstand what "choice" we actually had in the plan.  We had the choice to accept God's plan or not.  That was the only choice we had.  Obey or don't.  And yes, according to the teachings of some early leaders we knew that following the "amended plan" was wrong.  We had seen many other worlds going through this process and how things were done on other worlds.  Same plan every time.

2.  Because "realizing they were naked" is metaphor, as are the fig leaves.  It had to do specifically with the command to multiply and replenish the earth.

[Darren10]

The Plains;

 

In our last dialogue I pointed out to you that God the Father is God in Mormon theology. He is God from all eternity to all eternity. The exact same thing is true regarding God the Son, Jesus Christ.

" 19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all." (

(snip)

"

 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;"

(Abraham 3)

Here God the Father declares his supremacy above all in the pre-mortal existence. And one among all the spirits ("intelligences") there was *one* 'like unto God'. It is that *one* whom the Father instructed to join Him and 'make and earth' where all the spirits ("intelligences") may dwell.

Jump to the Book of Moses for details about Jesus becoming the Savior of mankind:

"1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

 2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

 3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;"

(Moses 4)

Here Jesus is the Father's 'Only Begotten...from the beginning'. Jesus was chosen to be the Savior and was chosen 'from the beginning'. He stood as one with the Father "from the beginning" and forever will. He is, as you pointed out in Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, page 64, the "great Jehovah". In Mormon theology He is God "from eternity to all eternity".

As for Adam and Eve, as pointed out to you by cdowis, bobbieware, and Freedom, and perhaps others still, neither had a conscience of "being naked" as something to be ashamed. My oldest child is 18 and my youngest is 4. While my oldest child has long kept her privacy, as she should, my 4 year old could care less if he ran around naked. He knows he's naked but is not ashamed at all by it. Same goes for Adam and Eve in gaining knowledge from the Tree of Knowledge.

[waveslider]

17 hours ago, theplains said:

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother
Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or 
hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam 
were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

1) As Thesometimesaint said we were all gods, until Lucifer chose to rebel and become Satan. In the scriptures it tells us:

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Psalm 82:6

Christ himself cited this same scripture when the Pharisees accused him of blasphemy:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"
John 10:34

I think we all had a different understanding of what, "God," actually means, before the veil of forgetfulness was put over us, here in mortality.

 

2) As has been said by a number of people already. Innocent, naive humans don't know what nakedness is until they get mature enough to understand things. How many little children actually understand what nakedness is? So far I have not seen any who do. I've seen many toddlers running around naked without realizing it at all, especially here in Hawaii, at the beaches. They have no clue that anything is wrong with it at all, but once they get a little older, they start to not want to be seen naked by others.

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think they tell you that the story of Adam and Eve in the temple is to be used as figurative not literal. Just heard someone today on a podcast say that they were told this in a temple class or something. 

Then what did I miss Tacenda by not going through the Temple?  I was told this was the LITERAL way to God and His promises.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Then what did I miss Tacenda by not going through the Temple?  I was told this was the LITERAL way to God and His promises.

It is.
Anyone that thinks the temple is purely symbolic/figurative has missed the point.
These are usually the people who think it should be altered or done away with because it makes some people uncomfortable.

Edited January 25, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Traela]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Then what did I miss Tacenda by not going through the Temple?  I was told this was the LITERAL way to God and His promises.

The story may or may not be symbolic.  Regardless, the Endowment itself is a necessary ordinance.

 

[theplains]

On 24/01/2017 at 9:19 PM, Bobbieaware said:

Yes, we knew Jesus Christ was the great Jehovah (God) before we accepted the Father's will that he, Jehovah, should be our Savior in mortality, even the Lamb of God who was foreordained to atone for our sins before the world was created. And the Book of Moses also testifies Christ was Jehovah, the Word of the Father's power, when all of the spirit sons and daughters of God were created in the premortal world (you would call them angels).

The teaching manual does not indicate anywhere that spirit sons and daughters were choosing between
Jesus (as Jehovah God) and their spirit brother Lucifer. What do you base your statement on?

Would you show me where the Book of Moses says Jesus is God when the spirit sons and daughters were
created?

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

On 1/24/2017 at 10:03 PM, Freedom said:

Concerning Eve in the garden, this is an ancient liturgical text and the nakedness serves a function. You should not read that she was nude, ate a banana, and then she could see she needed to put on some clothes. A better word would be naive or ignorant rather than nude. The tree represents coming of age, like reaching puberty. She realized that in order to move forward, she needed to eat the fruit, and when she ate it she realized just how ignorant she really was. When children grow up and have children of their own, their eyes are suddenly opened to how much their parents sacrificed. The garden story is Adam and Eve the archetype, not Adam and Eve the people. In Mosiah 3:16 we learn that Adam is our nature. In the LDS temple we learn that Adam and Eve represent us. Eve's access to the fruit in a sense represents women's access to the power of procreation and nurturing their children. Adams access to the tree of life represents men's stewardship over the priesthood. I find it interesting that Eve brought life, and Mary was present when Jesus was resurrected. Two women, two bookends. 

If you don't believe Adam and Eve realized they were literally naked, what do you believe the fig leaf aprons
represent then?  And what do the coats of skin that God substituted represent?  Do you wear anything that
resembles the imagery of the fig leaf aprons instead of the coats of skin? (I understand if you prefer not to
answer).

Thanks,
Jim

 

No Temple Content.  Only warning.

[theplains]

On 25/01/2017 at 2:09 PM, Darren10 said:

The Plains;

 

In our last dialogue I pointed out to you that God the Father is God in Mormon theology. He is God from all eternity to all eternity. The exact same thing is true regarding God the Son, Jesus Christ.

Do you believe Joseph Smith's teaching (and other teachings in LDS literature) that Heavenly Father was a
man who became a God?

Thanks,
Jim

[Bobbieaware]

46 minutes ago, theplains said:

The teaching manual does not indicate anywhere that spirit sons and daughters were choosing between
Jesus (as Jehovah God) and their spirit brother Lucifer. What do you base your statement on?

Would you show me where the Book of Moses says Jesus is God when the spirit sons and daughters were
created?

Thanks,
Jim

A single teaching manual does not ordinarily contain all that can be known on a given subject. They're usually just simple summaries.

Chapter 3 of the book of Moses says the creation of mankind in Moses chapter 2 is speaking of the spiritual creation of man. And of that spiritual creation we are told both the Father and the Son participated in the creation of the spirits of the premortal sons and daughters of God.

 26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them. (Moses 2)

Then in chapter 3 of Moses, we are told the creation of man, spoken of in the above quoted verses from chapter 2, is the spiritual creation. And so, just as we are taught by Paul, Christ created all things, even the creation of our spirits.

 4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,

 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; (Moses 3

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

If you don't believe Adam and Eve realized they were literally naked, what do you believe the fig leaf aprons
represent then?  And what do the coats of skin that God substituted represent?  Do you wear anything that
resembles the imagery of the fig leaf aprons instead of the coats of skin? (I understand if you prefer not to
answer).

Thanks,
Jim

Inappropriate question for this board.  Temple content.
But the fig leaves/aprons and coats are all represented and are symbolic metaphors, not just literal.

Edited January 27, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Freedom]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

If you don't believe Adam and Eve realized they were literally naked, what do you believe the fig leaf aprons
represent then?  And what do the coats of skin that God substituted represent?  Do you wear anything that
resembles the imagery of the fig leaf aprons instead of the coats of skin? (I understand if you prefer not to
answer).

Thanks,
Jim

Even you should know that the rituals in the temple are nothing if not figurative. When you read a liturgical text as is Genesis, you need to understand the difference between literal and fictional on the one hand, and concrete and abstract on the other. Uninformed bible readers look at the text superficially and conclude falsely that if the text cannot be reasonably matched up with the real world, it must be fiction; but this is not the case. The bible is literal (i.e. not fiction) and abstract. For example, if I were to say that I was so hungry I could eat a horse, I am expressing my literal hunger with the abstract notion of eating a horse. You have to consider what each of the images represent in order to understand the doctrine being taught. The fig leaf, the serpent, the fruit, and the naming of animals are all functions of something that meant a tremendous amount to the original audience. 

If I were to say you are a regular Einstein, you would right away understand that I was complimenting you on your intelligence. You would also accept that the only aspect of this famous physicist I am referring to is his intelligence. we dismiss his idiosyncrasies, his politics, his religion (or lack thereof) and his sexual preferences. The rise of Einstein the archetype has emerged over decades of literary references. So it is with the images in the garden story - we need to uncover what aspect of fig leaves is being represented, what aspect of naming animals is being represented and so forth. 

When people say we should not take the bible literally, they are missing the point entirely. Yes, we should take the bible literally, but not concretely. Take the story of Job for example, Did his wife actually condemn him? Not likely because it was her children after all that were killed after all. The real wife of Job would have been mourning. His wife serves a function in the story. The story is literal (true) but expressed through abstract references. Poetic and expository combined into one. 

[JLHPROF]

13 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Joseph Smith's teaching (and other teachings in LDS literature) that Heavenly Father was a
man who became a God?

100%.

[Nofear]

On 1/24/2017 at 7:25 PM, theplains said:

1] When the spirits were deciding on choosing whether to follow the choice of their spirit brother Jesus or their brother Satan's amended plan, did they realize that Jesus was already a God?  Or hadn't he yet become a God in the spirit world at that time?

2) When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit first before Adam, why didn't she realize she and Adam were naked?  Why did this knowledge only come to her after Adam partook?

1] I think one of the most overlooked doctrines of our theology is the plurality of worlds. The Plan of Salvation had been realized countless times on prior worlds. We knew the plan worked. But we also knew that not everybody "passed" the test. Lucifer appealed to the fears of some of his brothers and sisters with the claim that his plan would be an improvement upon what had been done. Everybody would "make it". We discussed his alternative proposal in the grand council in heaven and the majority sided with God and what had been done before.

2) While perhaps literally naked it may also refer to their lack of preparation. It is my belief that God fully intended Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit at a time of their choosing but they were told not to until they had been appropriately instructed and prepared. The Garden was a preparatory state (for both their bodies and minds). Lucifer upset at his defeat in the council of heaven, with anger and malice, sought to disrupt the plan (as it had been done on so many worlds before) by prematurely getting Adam and Eve to partake. He did this with the hope that he could mess this world from the get go (and probably retort with a "See, I told you so! My plan was better!"). Lucifer's great fall was perhaps not in proposing an alternative plan (though his methods there were probably suspect) but in seeking to derail the agreed upon plan of salvation. It was after his "successful" attempt at meddling that he and his followers are cursed to eat the dust of this earth. I interpret this as basically having his travel privileges revoked. God would not tolerate a second attempt by Satan at disrupting other worlds. He would be bound to this world.

Not everybody subscribes to my interpretation. It implies that a satan is not necessary for the Plan of Salvation and even suggests that most of the worlds don't have such a rebel spirit. Personally I think any plan that is dependent on at least one of God's children stepping out to damn themselves for all eternity would be a pretty lame (e.g. what happens if nobody rebels?). Another reason is that it admits Eve was in truth deceived and it is not vogue to admit that she may have erred. This is perhaps partly because Eve has been blamed for so much of the world's ills and by extension all women. That blame is of course completely and utterly misplaced. She may have been deceived into premature action but she was entirely correct in seeing that she and her husband would need to partake. Mother Eve is deserving of nothing but honor.

[Alan]

In my view I think the accounts we have of the pre-existence, the council in heaven, the Fall etc, are very brief and lacking in any meaningful detail. So it is very tempting to read between the lines and develop our own theology. There is nothing wrong with this as long as we don't try to pass it off as the truth and demand others accept it.

I believe the Fall was a catastrophe at the time. When we say that Adam and Eve didn't sin but instead transgressed, we talk in riddles. Of course they sinned.

They were given a straight choice. Obey God or obey Lucifer. They chose to obey Lucifer.

This isn't rocket science.