'Tis the Season: Elves (and Nephites)

[hagoth7]

It's that time of year again.

First, a glimpse of the historical origin of Elves...from whom many of us have ancestry:

http://beowulfinstitute.com/files/Elves.pdf

(Later this month, the other [Nephite] boot may drop.)

Merry Christmas to each of you!

Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

It's that time of year again.

First, a glimpse of the historical origin of Elves...from whom many of us have ancestry:

http://beowulfinstitute.com/files/Elves.pdf

(Later this month, the other [Nephite] boot may drop.)

Merry Christmas to each of you!

Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

I am descended from a member of the Council of Elven from the elventh century BC.

[hagoth7]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I am descended from a member of the Council of Elven from the elventh century BC.

K. Thanks for sharing.

Are there any *serious* thoughts/comments/suggestions?

Edited December 21, 2016 by hagoth7

[JLHPROF]

And here I was looking forward to an essay on how elves were actually nephites...

[hagoth7]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

And here I was looking forward to an essay on how elves were actually nephites...

Yep.     Many were/are.  

Stay tuned...

Edited December 22, 2016 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

An elven discussion blossoms into a Nephite discussion:

“And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. 

History became legend. Legend became myth.

And for two and a half thousand years....”

There is bedrock historical basis for most folklore and legends.

And therefore considerably more substance to early elven references than most might initially expect.

I am referring here to the long-buried historical basis for elven references/legends, *not* to the fictional genre that later sprang out from (and unfortunately outgrew/shrouded) the former.

Names like Gandalf, Frodo, and Gimli were *not* invented by Tolkein. Instead, he simply lifted such names directly from dusty accounts on fading European parchments.

Example: According to some such sources, Frodo was a ruler in northern Europe who predated Tolkein by almost twenty centuries...back to the time of Caesar Augustus. (...and in the days of Caesar Augustus...).  

Frodo was also said to be part of a recently-arrived-by-sea dynasty, a dynasty that survives to this day in northern Europe.

So Tolkein's borrowed assertion that many of the elves (peoples who once occupied the *Elbe* River region) would one day sail off into the sunset to return to their ancient homeland in the west...were more pregnant with insight than most readers have previously realized. Because there was extensive tradition in Europe, handed down for generations, that the ancestral homelands of many Europeans lay westward across the Atlantic - even mention that one day their descendants would return and inherit such lands.

And such references align directly with Nephite promises, Bible assurances, and latter-day prophecy.

Edited December 22, 2016 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

Centuries before so much was lost and forgotten, references to elves were simply acknowledgements of  those whose heritage traced back to one widely-respected region. (Elbe),

Some among them were said to have the gift of sight, healing, prophecy, and more.

Dauntless in battle, they were nonetheless content at times to avoid conflict and disappear like the fog into forests and marshes...a historically-documented tradition that dates back precisely to the time of Hagoth.

Edited December 22, 2016 by hagoth7

[Five Solas]

I'm ready to hear how the Three Nephites factor into this.  

--Erik

PS.  For the record, I never believed Santa did all the delivery work by himself.

;0)

[hagoth7]

6 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I'm ready to hear how the Three Nephites factor into this.  

From your reply, I'd venture that you're not.

All the same, Merry Christmas. :0)

Edited December 22, 2016 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

9 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I'm ready to hear how the Three Nephites factor into this.  

Or, you might be ready to consider a fresh perspective on a key event that happened a generation *before* the Three Nephites...

Are you?

Edited December 22, 2016 by hagoth7

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Or, you might be ready to consider a fresh perspective on a key event that happened a generation *before* the Three Nephites...

Are you?

 

I assume this references 3 Nephi 1 and Matthew 2.

3 Nephi 1:
1 Now it came to pass that the ninety and first year had passed away and it was six hundred years from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; and it was in the year that Lachoneus was the chief judge and the governor over the land.
2 And Nephi, the son of Helaman, had departed out of the land of Zarahemla, giving charge unto his son Nephi, who was his eldest son, concerning the plates of brass, and all the records which had been kept, and all those things which had been kept sacred from the departure of Lehi out of Jerusalem.
3 Then he departed out of the land, and whither he went, no man knoweth; and his son Nephi did keep the records in his stead, yea, the record of this people.
4 And it came to pass that in the commencement of the ninety and second year, behold, the prophecies of the prophets began to be fulfilled more fully; for there began to be greater signs and greater miracles wrought among the people.
5 But there were some who began to say that the time was past for the words to be fulfilled, which were spoken by Samuel, the Lamanite.

Matthew 2:
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Personally, I've always like the theory that Nephi was one of the wise men from the east.  Not exactly a fresh perspective - that theory has been around a while, but I've always liked it.  Didn't know there was a book on the idea.

[hagoth7]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I assume this references 3 Nephi 1 and Matthew 2

...1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Personally, I've always liked the theory that Nephi was one of the wise men from the east.  Not exactly a fresh perspective - that theory has been around a while, but I've always liked it.  Didn't know there was a book on the idea.

Yes. the book is over a decade old, IIRC,  and is no longer in print.

In addition to 3 Nephi 1, IIRC, the book also references slightly earlier parallel passages such as:

Helaman 16:14

14 And angels did appear unto men, wise men, and did declare unto them glad tidings of great joy; thus in this year the scriptures began to be fulfilled.

 

As I recall, the author suggested that the departed Nephi was accompanied not only by his brother, but also by Samuel the Lamanite (noting as a case for Samuel that some early depictions of the wise men show one of them with darker skin).  

 

So while this is all a tangent from the OP, but hopefully a worthwhile one, given the season.

 

And, like the OP, this brief tangent suggests yet another (slightly later) journey from the New World back to the Old. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by hagoth7

[Five Solas]

17 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

From your reply, I'd venture that you're not.

All the same, Merry Christmas. :0)

Okay, you're probably right, I'm not really ready for a discourse on Three Nephites.  (That would definitely require a run to the liquor store.)  But what a personal reply you made in response!  I won't ask how much you spent on the models in your photo.  In return, please don't ask me how much I spent to get the 3-year old (just turned 4) I use for my own user image, or how long it took to get that bike shot.  Some things are better undisclosed, right?

;0)

Merry Christmas to you!

--Erik

[hagoth7]

11 hours ago, Five Solas said:

...But what a personal reply you made in response!  I won't ask how much you spent on the models in your photo....

Models? (Mebbe I'm the cute little one in the middle.)

[pogi]

On 12/21/2016 at 9:50 PM, hagoth7 said:

So Tolkein's borrowed assertion that many of the elves (peoples who once occupied the *Elbe* River region) would one day sail off into the sunset to return to their ancient homeland in the west...were more pregnant with insight than most readers have previously realized. Because there was extensive tradition in Europe, handed down for generations, that the ancestral homelands of many Europeans lay westward across the Atlantic - even mention that one day their descendants would return and inherit such lands.

And such references align directly with Nephite promises, Bible assurances, and latter-day prophecy.

From your link:

Quote

In 9 AD, the people of the region rose up, under the leadership of Arminius, one of their own people trained previously in battle tactics by the Romans, and annihilated three Roman legions. Stunned, the emperor immediately ordered his remaining forces to retreat from and abandon the former Elbe boundary to the usurpers, and take up position along the Rhine.

Let me get this straight.  Your theory is that an enormous group of Nephites sailed from the promised land to Europe.  One of these Nephites named "Arminius" was trained in Roman warfare and led this large and powerful group of Elven Nephites to annihilate three Roman legions around the time of the birth of Christ (3 Nephi 1). To top it off, these Elven Nephites are a large part of the ancestral tree for all of Europe, and these European Elven Nephites are prophesied to bring the gospel of Christ back to their "homeland" of America?

What do you get when you take one legend of the Elves, and combine it with another legend of Europeans coming from the West, and combine those with the Book of Mormon?  I don't know, I'll let you guys finish the punch line, but there has to be a joke in there somewhere, right?

Edited December 23, 2016 by pogi

[hagoth7]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Let me get this straight.  Your theory is that an enormous group of Nephites sailed from the promised land to Europe....

Enormous group? Alma 63 provides some numbers associated with seafarers. Do such numbers equate to enormous? Some people consider a few thousand people an enormous amount. Some don't. Your results may vary.

3 hours ago, pogi said:

...One of these Nephites named "Arminius" was trained in Roman warfare and led this large and powerful group of Elven Nephites to annihilate three Roman legions around the time of the birth of Christ (3 Nephi 1)....

I have considerable reason to believe Arminius was at least *part* Nephite, yes.

3 hours ago, pogi said:

..To top it off, these Elven Nephites are a large part of the ancestral tree for all of Europe, and these European Elven Nephites are prophesied to bring the gospel of Christ back to their "homeland" of America?

1. Of all of Europe? No. Of part of Europe. Yes. As Lehi and Nephi and Jacob (and others) promised.

2. I'm not alone in acknowledging that the Elbe region is the epicenter from which much of the Germanic past radiated. Medieval accounts affirm the same. Many Angles and Saxons, for example, subsequently migrated from the Elbe region to Great Britain to give it the name Angle-land. And centuries later, their descendants were among the main source of immigrants to take possession of much of North America.

3. ? Prophesied to bring the gospel of Christ back to America? Not sure where you got that from what I offered.  2 Nephi 3, however, does suggest that the latter-day seer would descend not only from Joseph in Egypt, but also from Lehi's son Joseph. And Neph's vision provides a few clues about the Nephite diaspora and eventual gathering.

3 hours ago, pogi said:

What do you get when you take one legend of the Elves, and combine it with another legend of Europeans coming from the West, and combine those with the Book of Mormon?

Simple.

1. The memory of coming from the west was perpetuated for generations among peoples who traced to the Elbe region.Call them Elves, or Lombards, or Frisians, or Saxons, or Angles (or a number of other names if you wish).

 2. Feel free to doubt and mock and trample if you wish. It's likely at least part of your heritage here. Or, you are also free to carefully review the origin accounts of the peoples from northern Europe to see whether I'm yanking your chain - or whether I'm speaking the truth.

3. Lehi's vision regarding his seed encompassed Europe. Nephi, who faithfully asked to see what his father was shown, recorded his vision which encompassed the same. And he said a few intriguing things regarding those eventual events which one can reject if one wishes. His brother Jacob wrote of similar things. etc. Their brother Joseph, as mentioned earlier, was extended a very interesting promise that sheds light on such. So since their prophecies regarding their seed and an eventual restoration and gathering included the stage of Europe, why mock a frank discussion/exploration of European history/heritage?

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't know, I'll let you guys finish the punch line, but there has to be a joke in there somewhere, right?

I might be jolly at times. But there is no joke or pun here (other than the earlier intentional use of the word "frank.")

Whether you agree with me, or choose to mock what I offer, I'm confident about what I've offered and shared here. There are hundreds of sources backing up the tiny glimpse I've extended.

I wish you a meaningful Christmas season.

Edited December 23, 2016 by hagoth7

[pogi]

1 hour ago, hagoth7 said:

Whether you agree with me, or choose to mock what I offer, I'm confident about what I've offered and shared here. There are hundreds of sources backing up the tiny glimpse I've extended.

Fair enough, I don't mean to mock.  It really is a pretty cool story, but seems very fanciful to me.  Pareidolia at work perhaps? 

1 hour ago, hagoth7 said:

Enormous group? Alma 63 provides some numbers associated with seafarers. Do such numbers equate to enormous? Some people consider a few thousand people an enormous amount. Some don't. Your results may vary.

The group had to be large enough to defeat 3 legions (15,000 men) of Roman soldiers.  When you add women and children to an army of that size, that is an unreasonably large group to have come from the promised land by ship at that time period.  Plus they had to be settled and familiar enough with the region and strong enough to defeat Caesars armies in 9 A.D. (Haggoth set sail around 56 B.C.)  seems like an insurmountable feat to me.   Alma 63 doesn't give any numbers of seafarers.  It gives numbers for people traveling North, it then talks about seafarers which were going northward from the west sea, but it doesn't give numbers.  Not likely to find Europe that way!  That is the wrong sea and the wrong direction. 

Quote

 

2. I'm not alone in acknowledging that the Elbe region is the epicenter from which much of the Germanic past radiated. Medieval accounts affirm the same. Many Angles and Saxons, for example, subsequently migrated from the Elbe region to Great Britain to give it the name Angle-land.

1. The memory of coming from the west was perpetuated for generations among peoples who traced to the Elbe region.Call them Elves, or Lombards, or Frisians, or Saxons, or Angles (or a number of other names if you wish).

 

Given these two points, doesn't it seem reasonable that the land "westward" spoke of in their folk lore is the present day England, of which they returned to?

  Not to mention, the story of Lehi would have undoubtedly been part of the folklore of the those Elven Nephites, oh ya, they would have been Christian too!  That is an important tidbit of information. 

Marry Christmas to you too hagoth!

Edited December 23, 2016 by pogi

[Rajah Manchou]

On 12/21/2016 at 9:55 PM, hagoth7 said:

Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

I know next to nothing about the topic, but I did see these posted recently and though of your hypothesis... 

Punic Place Names in Britain and Ireland
Some possible Phoenician/Punic names in Britain and Ireland

I'll throw this one in there too...

Some evidence for people of East Asian ancestry living in Roman London

[hagoth7]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

Fair enough, I don't mean to mock.  It really is a pretty cool story, but seems very fanciful to me.  Pareidolia at work perhaps? 

? Didn't mean to mock? You referred to a punch line, and suggested the expectation of a joke. Suggesting an inclination to make light of something significant. But perhaps I misunderstood your meaning?

Pareidolia. Huh. Interesting assertion.

15 hours ago, pogi said:

The group had to be large enough to defeat 3 legions (15,000 men) of Roman soldiers.  When you add women and children to an army of that size, that is an unreasonably large group to have come from the promised land by ship at that time period.  Plus they had to be settled and familiar enough with the region and strong enough to defeat Caesars armies in 9 A.D. ...seems like an insurmountable feat to me. 

Pogi, you've fashioned a very nice strawman there.

Strawman's arms, legs, and torso: your assertion that the alliance in northern Europe consisted solely of Nephite descendants.  

My response: I don't believe (and never did believe) that the combined tribes that trounced Roman legions in 9 AD consisted solely of Nephite descendants. However, I do believe, with very good reason, that Nephites were among the chief ringleaders and strategists that engineered their victory. But just for grins, if the 5,400 men mentioned in 63:4 is the count of those emigrating by sea, which we'll explore a bit later, a Nephite contingent 2.5 to 3 times that large (13000-15,000 men) 67 years later is quite viable. 

15 hours ago, pogi said:

(Hagoth set sail around 56 B.C.) 

I respectfully disagree. To the best of my reckoning, his first ship actually left about 4 years prior to that (around 60 BC).

A difference of a few years might seem an insignificant trifle to some - yet much hinges on that minor correction.

If any are interested in the basis for that corrected chronology, simply ask.

Edited December 24, 2016 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

Alma 63 doesn't give any numbers of seafarers.  It gives numbers for people traveling North, it then talks about seafarers which were going northward..

Are you sure? Let's take a closer look.

The key difficulty with your assertion is that the distinctions you generate to imply two different emigrant groups with two different modes of travel are distinctions that don't exist in the text. For example, your choice to distinguish a northward-bound group with a supposed North-bound group heading is problematic, since "North" is mentioned nowhere in that chapter. Instead, "northward" is the emigration direction provided all six times. Likewise, while most LDS readers adopt the deeply-ingrained assumption that a group of emigrants *marched* northward in verse 4 (supposedly unrelated to the seafaring journeys in subsequent verses) the troublesome fact is that the chapter makes zero mention of Nephites migrating on foot.

On the other side of the coin, to illustrate some of the weight of evidence in favor of a new paradigm, in many forms of writing, including scripture, subsequent sentences/verses often illuminate and expand a previous verse/sentence. As such, in the emigration verses in Alma 63, the 5400 men (+ families) in verse 4 are most likely merely expanded upon in greater detail in the next few verses...notably in the context of ships and seafaring. As such, this rendering suggests the exact opposite of your assertion - that verse 4 provides the count of the men embarking by sea to the land northward. 

(And there is considerable reason to believe that this vague land northward included Europe.)

17 hours ago, pogi said:

...seafarers which were going northward from the west sea....Not likely to find Europe that way!  That is the wrong sea and the wrong direction. 

Oh? Are you certain?

Let's take a closer look.

 

By my reckoning, if the Yucatan is considered a Nephite epicenter, the *south* sea is actually the Pacific.

And the west sea is actually the Gulf Mexico, with the Gulf Stream that leads to...(drumroll please)...Europe.

(As a caveat, this doesn't mean I'm advocating this region for Bountiful and Zarahemla. Similar results (path to Europe) come from examining other proposed Nephite geographic models.)

17 hours ago, pogi said:

Given these two points, doesn't it seem reasonable that the land "westward" spoke of in their folk lore is the present day England, of which they returned to?

Reasonable? After considering only two data points? That's not even triangulating, that's merely biangulating.  Pareidolia...on steroids.

However, when we factor in a number of data points beyond just those two, extensive testimony from the British Isles and elsewhere demonstrates that their claimed homeland lay instead considerably westward of Ireland.   

17 hours ago, pogi said:

  Not to mention, the story of Lehi would have undoubtedly been part of the folklore of the those Elven Nephites...

Yep. Great point...and at least some of his family. Documented by European accounts.

Plus a surprising number of other replicated facets of Nephite culture.

17 hours ago, pogi said:

oh ya, they would have been Christian too! 

Yep. Documented...including documentation from a source that was contemporary with the writing of the New Testament. 

17 hours ago, pogi said:

Marry Christmas...

!!  Amen.

 You have extended the perhaps-unintentional gifts of extreme irony...and timely hope...this Christmas weekend.)  :0)

Edited December 24, 2016 by hagoth7

[pogi]

6 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

? Didn't mean to mock? You referred to a punch line, and suggested the expectation of a joke. Suggesting an inclination to make light of something significant. But perhaps I misunderstood your meaning?

hagoth, I have never heard of this theory before.  The way you presented it seemed more light hearted and I didn't perceive it as anything more than a fun but silly theory.  What I said was not in the spirit of mocking, it was not said in a contemptuous or scornful manner, it was more intended to be playful banter, so sorry for any hurt feelings. 

I have more to respond to , but this will have to suffice for now.

[pogi]

6 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Are you sure? Let's take a closer look.

The key difficulty with your assertion is that the distinctions you generate to imply two different emigrant groups with two different modes of travel are distinctions that don't exist in the text. For example, your choice to distinguish a northward-bound group with a supposed North-bound group heading is problematic, since "North" is mentioned nowhere in that chapter. Instead, "northward" is the emigration direction provided all six times. Likewise, while most LDS readers adopt the deeply-ingrained assumption that a group of emigrants *marched* northward in verse 4 (supposedly unrelated to the seafaring journeys in subsequent verses) the troublesome fact is that the chapter makes zero mention of Nephites migrating on foot.

Here is the text:

Quote

4 And it came to pass that in the thirty and seventh year of the reign of the judges, there was a large company of men, even to the amount of five thousand and four hundred men, with their wives and their children, departed out of the land of Zarahemla into the land which was northward.
 5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.
 6 And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.

I think this passage is more troublesome for your theory in that it doesn't mention departure by ship for the first group.  The consecutive use of "and it came to pass" in these verses suggest a chronological order of different groups, and not an "expansion" or explanation of "previous verses".  It only mentions ship building and travel by sea in the second group.   I can't imagine building enough ships to hold 5,400 men with their wives and children.  That is around 11,000+ people journeying across the entire atlantic ocean in the year 60 B.C. seems unreasonable.  That is not counting Hagoth and the "many" others from the second group. 

6 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Oh? Are you certain?

Yes, I feel fairly certain that a seafaring people capable of crossing the Atlantic ocean carrying 11,000 people on board their ships in the year 60 B.C. would know the difference between east and north by simply gazing into the heavens.  The sun does rise in the east after all, surely they didn't lose that knowledge, not to mention other obvious heavenly indicators by night. 

Edited December 24, 2016 by pogi

[hagoth7]

14 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I know next to nothing about the topic, but I did see these posted recently and though of your hypothesis... 

Punic Place Names in Britain and Ireland
Some possible Phoenician/Punic names in Britain and Ireland

I'll throw this one in there too...

Some evidence for people of East Asian ancestry living in Roman London

Thank you very much for sharing.

I came across your third news item earlier this year, and found it extremely interesting.

I had never seen the other two links before. Thank you! Very good stuff there.

1. As to isotope analysis, I have believed for quite some time that isotope analysis in Europe will be a means by which Book of Mormon geography squabbles (Mormon infighting over where Zarahemla and Bountiful might roughly be found) will be silenced for good - and allow experts to then focus on bringing truth from the ground of both the European and America epicenters pinpointed by such matching isotopes.

2. As to the evidence of Semitic-speaking Phoenicians in northern Europe, I have a few tidbits to offer you in exchange for your kindness. In 57 BC, the first year after Roman legions invaded northern Europe, their account specifically mentions a seafaring people on the eastern seaboard of the continent by the name Veneti, and later refers to their region as Venetia (the phonetic equivalent of Pheonicia.). In that account, contemporary with Hagoth, the Veneti are described as the most powerful tribe on the coast, had the largest fleet (with which they trafficked with Britain), and excelled the other tribes in their knowledge of navigation. Later in that account, the manner of construction of one of the large ships said to be encountered by the Romans was described in surprising detail - which I am tempted to believe was a description of Hagoth's "exceedingly large" ship whose second voyage northward aligns with the timing of that Roman account almost precisely.  The Romans *claimed* to have enslaved every last one of them. 

Whether these people of Venetia contemporary with Hagoth were a long-lost remnant of Phoenicians (a people the Romans had feared, dreaded and hated for generations) or whether the account of their supposed conquest was exaggeration and hubris is the question. However that may present a false dichotomy. Since the author of the campaign account was well known for exaggerating his exploits to aggrandize his own reputation, elements of both realities may be true, and that the truth may be found somewhere in the middle. So I believe these Veneti were a thinly veiled reference to a supposedly dire threat in northern Europe that Caesar intentionally alluded to in his (propaganda) accounts to both justify his invasion of northern Europe, and to win the crowd at Rome for sparing them from a supposed Phoenician scourge. 

For a large number of reasons, I have also long believed that the surprising amount of detail provided about the manner of construction of one of the ships said to be of the Veneti belonged instead to their neighbors and allies the Venelli, the tribe said to be the ringleaders of the early rebellion against Rome, a people which I have good reason to believe were recently-arrived Nephite colonists - and that the ship described is none other than Hagoth's "exceedingly large" ship which sailed northward twice, loaded both times with "many" Nephites "much" provisions, and which, according to Alma 63 took a year to make its first round-trip voyage to some land northward.

As to the Venelli being Nephites, their origin accounts specifically claim that their land of origin was near a place whose name meant "destruction." Compare Alma 63: "And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward." As to the narrow neck, rather than it meaning a neck connecting two landmasses as most assume, other than this mention in the context of Hagoth's departure, it is only mentioned in one other context - that of the Jaredites who said it was "by the place where the sea divides the land."

(And it wouldn't be surprising that a relatively smaller group of newly-arrived, Semitic-speaking Nephites in Europe might choose to ally themselves with the strongest neighbors possible, Semitic-speaking Phoenicians.)

Not only is there a solid match between that European origin account of a placename meaning destruction and the land of Desolation in the context of Hagoth's departing ships, but there are a number of other telling references with the Vikings, who can be demonstrated elsewhere to be relatives of (and perhaps direct descendants of) the Venelli. The most telling references are:

1. When the Christian Vikings first arrived in America, they used imagery specifically reminiscent of the Old Testament account of the Israelite scouts returning from their first exploratory foray into their promised land. Which suggests that those Christian Vikings for some reason saw America as *their* promised land.

2.Which may be answered in full by the name they chose for the land. They dubbed the land Vene-land, (sometimes spelled Vinland or a broad number of similar variants). Some believed the name was a reference to wine. Others believed it was a reference to pastureland. I have many reasons to believe the name (Vene-land) and their curious description allude instead to their ancient origins as Venelli - and that this newly recovered homeland of the Venelli - said to have once been near a placename meaning "destruction", is a matching bookend to Alma 63:5 and a broad number of prophecies relating to Nephite posterity and the land of promise.

Merry Christmas! 

:0)

Edited December 24, 2016 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, I feel fairly certain that a seafaring people capable of crossing the Atlantic ocean...would know the difference between east and north by simply gazing into the heavens.  The sun does rise in the east after all, surely they didn't lose that knowledge, not to mention other obvious heavenly indicators by night. 

Hi again pogi,

 Your reply suggests that you have declined to consider the specific implications of the Yucatan map offered earlier.

The sea due west of the Yucatan *is* the Gulf of Mexico, as any compass or glance at the heavens would confirm.

You seem to be claiming otherwise. If I may ask, on what basis?

 

Furthermore, as previously mentioned, in sync with the text, that west sea's Gulf Stream leads *northward*...specifically to Europe. A solid match to both New World and European realities on numerous accounts.

 

Those who prefer to believe that the largest ship instead sailed into the *south* sea (the Pacific) rather than a  west sea *specifically* mentioned by Alma 63 do so in direct contradiction to both MesoAmerican geography *and* the Nephite text.

And those claiming such, who also claim that a voyage into the south sea then sailed northward are suggesting geographies and directions that match neither MesoAmerica nor the South Pacific. (The Pacific isles are *south* of MesoAmerica - the opposite of  "northward".)

 

Thoughts?

Edited December 24, 2016 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

Ah, I just realized that your name traces to a people in the Pacific. Is that the reason for the ongoing cognitive dissonance?

If you think that what I've offered here attempts to challenge or  negate Hagothian departure(s)  into the Pacific, that's not my assertion at all. (As I have written years ago, the text leaves room for other voyages, into other nearby seas, heading off in unnamed directions.)

So this isn't a negation of Pacific Islander heritage. It is instead an expansion of Lehite/Nephite heritage...of the promises made to our mutual fathers.

Fair enough?

Edited December 24, 2016 by hagoth7