Scef - Book of Mormon onramp

[hagoth7]

There is cause to believe that the foretold diaspora/scattering of Lehi's descendants included Europe (among other places).

Or simply said, that while one Nephite civilization thrived in the ancient Americas, other Nephites/Ammonites transplanted across the Atlantic to Europe.

 

I am in the process of rewriting some of the earlier research/evidence for that, this time intended for a non-LDS audience.

...an intended onramp to help others gain interest in reading/considering the Book of Mormon.

1. Pllease open/consider the following hyperlink:

• Today: early European references to the seafaring scion of kings, -Scef. .http://www.beowulfinstitute.com/Scef.html

2. Bear with my belief for just a moment please. I firmly believe that Nephites were iin both Europe and tin he Americas.  After sampling the brief thoughts above regarding Scef, I'd appreciate your opinion.

Do you believe that a bit of non-conclusive evidence for Nephites in Europe might help one of your non-member (or nominally active) firiends/neighbors ...eventually give the Book of Mormon new-found consideration? 

3. Please participate in the poll.

Keep in mind President Benson's vision for the Book of Mormon, and his wish that God's condemnation be lifted: 

"...I have a vision of artists putting into film, drama, literature, music, and paintings, great themes and great characters from the Book of Mormon..."

"...I challenge all of us to prayerfully consider steps that we can personally take to bring this new witness for Christ more fully into our own lives and into a world that so desperately needs it...."

 

And on to discussion on the merits/disadvantags of drawing from the likes of Scef (Jo-seph) and other early European accounts as an onramp for our neighbors to reconsider the Book of Mormon.

Edited July 2, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

Added a 1-question poll, if any are willing to participate.

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

Don't know about "Scef" as a group name, but the idea seems way out there in any case.  Would be a very hard sell.  The anti-Mormons would love it though.

[hagoth7]

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Don't know about "Scef" as a group name, but the idea seems way out there in any case.  Would be a very hard sell.  The anti-Mormons would love it though.

Thank you for the feedback.

? A group name. I don't follow your meaning.

Simple premise:

1. Scef, a scion of kings  = Yo-sef, Lehi's son. 

2. And a people freshly entering Gaul, bearing his name, encountered Julius Caesar in the wake of Hagoth. (Several tribal names in early Europe were said to derive from an early ancestor.)

Why would anti's love any of that?

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...the idea seems way out there in any case.  Would be a very hard sell.

Way out there means...?

1. ..a concern with the core premise?

2. Ot with the evidence offered?

3. Or the handling of the evidence?

4 Or with the overall presentation? 

As to being "a hard sell", ?the Scef/Jo-seph piece isn't intended as a one-off salvo in and of itself.  As if one thought alone would elicit interest/change of heart. Looking for cumulative effect instead - letting each determine for/with their neighbor what to relay to them when, and in what order, and when what has been sent is sufficient.

Likely lineup after Scef,

Release  #2  Nephi in early European culture.

Release #3 Hagoth, in early European culture.

Relese #4 Nephite measurements

etc.

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[Calm]

No one should ever push to read the Book of Mormon as an historical text, imo.  That gets the wrong end of the stick.

It is for spiritual enlightenment.  

History may be used to inform the Book of Mormon, but I think one will wander from the main path if they focus on the reverse.

[Calm]

"young Scef appears to have been born while on a boat, the son of a man who was at least reminiscent of Noah."

Are you suggesting Joseph, son of Lehi was born on the ship while crossing from to their new land?

"5 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father, that we should arise and go down into the ship.

6 And it came to pass that on the morrow, after we had prepared all things, much fruits and ^ameat from the wilderness, and honey in abundance, and provisions according to that which the Lord had commanded us, we did go down into the ship, with all our loading and our ^bseeds, and whatsoever thing we had brought with us, every one according to his age; wherefore, we did all go down into the ^cship, with our wives and our children.

7 And now, my father had begat two sons in the wilderness; the elder was called ^aJacob and the younger ^bJoseph."

PS:  reconstruct in the last line or so is misspelled, farewell is a typo as well mid-page:

"That farewll was a"

another typo:  proncounced precisely the same as Gui-seppe"

Edited July 1, 2017 by Calm

[hagoth7]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

No one should ever push to read the Book of Mormon as an historical text, imo.  That gets the wrong end of the stick.

It is for spiritual enlightenment.  

Then let me clarify:

The core message is this:

**handing book carefully to a friend**

"This is a sacred message from your fathers. Treasure it."

 

Does the clarity of (that* intent resonate more in line what I believe we're each saying?

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

"young Scef appears to have been born while on a boat, the son of a man who was at least reminiscent of Noah."

Are you suggesting Joseph, son of Lehi was born on the ship while crossing from to their new land?

Yes.   

8 hours ago, Calm said:

typo

Thank you

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

...It is for spiritual enlightenment.  

History may be used to inform the Book of Mormon, but I think one will wander from the main path if they focus on the reverse.

What if one instead focused on it being a record of one's ancestors...which, per the title page and several other passages, is part of its purpose?

It is, in essence, one's treasured family history for those from Europe, with prophetic promise.

Which is what those in the Pacific Islands and in Latin America have been told for generations.

Do you believe the focus on it being an heirloom caused significant wandering (of the unwanted kind) among the latter two groups, or would cause wandering (of the unwanted kind) for the former? 

Thoughts?

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

.....................................:

**handing book carefully to a friend**

"This is a sacred message from your fathers. Treasure it."

Does the clarity of (that* intent resonate more in line what I believe we're each saying?

Good intentions, which will have a negative effect in the long run.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

.........................................................

Why would anti's love any of that?

Because it plays into their hands:  They love to show just how crazy and implausible the Book of Mormon is, and they love to quote actual Mormon believers in the BofM to show that Mormons are unable to restrain their flights of fancy enough to limit their assertions to actual historical evidence (that evidence accepted by the non-Mormon community of scholars).

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Good intentions...

OK.

...which will have a negative effect in the long run.

How so?

Especially with that being a core stated purpose of the Nephite record?

[Robert F. Smith]

21 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

OK.

How so?

Especially with that being a core stated purpose of the Nephite record?

You know the old saying that "the road to Hell is lined with good intentions."

[Honorentheos]

14 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

I believe that the ancient Nephite disapora included, among other places, ancient Europe.

I am in the process of rewriting bit-sized content about that for a non-LDS audience.

...an intended onramp to gain interest in reading the Book of Mormon.

• Today: early European references to the seafaring scion of kings, -Scef. .http://www.beowulfinstitute.com/Scef.html
• Tomorrow: early European references to -Scef's older brother.
• Sunday: early European references to a shipbuilder contemporary with Captain Moroni.

Asking iyour take on whether you feel a half dozen or dozen more of this kinda thing (text or youtube) might intrigue one of your firiends/neighbors sufficiently to discuss it with you in their home and/or on a break/drive/walk...to eventually pick up the Book of Mormon for the first time.  Thoughts?

I need to add a category. I'm no longer Mormon and do not believe in Lehites. So I'm not neutral but I also think your particular theory about them is not much different from the other culturally appropriating attempts to find Lehites in other cultures with actual pasts being rewritten by these attempts.

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Because it plays into their hands:  They love to show just how crazy and implausible the Book of Mormon is, and they love to quote actual Mormon believers in the BofM to show that Mormons are unable to restrain their flights of fancy enough to limit their assertions to actual historical evidence (that evidence accepted by the non-Mormon community of scholars).

I appreciate, and am carefully considering your feedback.

My responses are to both explain my current stance, and to request further input (from you and others)...to help weigh whether it is time to shift that stance.

1. I don't mind being mocked, as long as what I write helps establish a worthwhile beachhead for others. If my initial contribution eventually advances future scholarship in Europe which one day garners sufficient credibility for some to give the Nephite record a closer, sincere look, (and/or for members to read/study/treasure it more than they previously had) that works for me.

2. Are such initial approaches an embarrassment for you...or others?

3. I don't see good reason to limit research/commentary to what non-LDS scholarship might happen to have previously stated, especially while addressing questions they have not yet begun to consider.

4. Should the earliest LDS authors of Nephite/American connections have remained silent? Or did their generation, and subsequent generations, benefit from the now-cringeworthy-to-some things that they initially generated?

[hagoth7]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You know the old saying that "the road to Hell is lined with good intentions."

Yes.

But I don't buy that saying. (At all.)

Is there some reason that I should?

 

I believe an important part of being pure in heart is *having* and acting upon pure intentions.

And I believe that imperfect execution *is part of mortality.* And the secular perfection trap has zero appeal or use to me. The type of perfection I seek is of a different nature.

If the atonement of Jesus Christ doesn't bridge the gap between pure intent and imperfect execution, we might as well toss in the towel/dirty rags and call it a day...or toss in the dirty rags precisely in the way suggested by another in this forum weeks ago...which I'm confident is precisely what we're supposed to do each day.

 

Question:

Do you believe that

• the earliest latter-day saints who wrote about Lehites 
• or about the D&C/Pearl of Great Price
• or about Restoration history,
• or the pre-Restoration saints who wrote about the Old Testament
• or about the New Testeament,
• (many of whom were and/or are mocked)
• are somehow consigned to hell? 

If so, on what basis?

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

7 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Yes.

But I don't buy that saying. (At all.)

Is there some reason that I should?

.......................................................

Well, if you don't like that saying, try on the notion that going down the Yellow Brick Road with Toto may not lead you to where you expect, and you may finally realize that there was no place like home after all.

Or try searching far and wide for the Blue Bird of Happiness, only to discover that it was in your own back yard all along.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, Honorentheos said:

I need to add a category. I'm no longer Mormon and do not believe in Lehites. So I'm not neutral but I also think your particular theory about them is not much different from the other culturally appropriating attempts to find Lehites in other cultures with actual pasts being rewritten by these attempts.

I understand your concern. And appreciate you expressing it.

Question being, *is* what I'm doing "culturally-appropriating"?

You approach and aswer that question as a foregone conclusion.

Rather than culturally-appropriating is what I'm doing simply corrroborating/realigning/restoring?

I invite you to put the conclusion on hold, and honestly engage/reason with the evidence and interpretation offered.

We've been online friends here and elsewhere for a long time. So I would  really appreciate and value your continued engagement/input.

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[Calm]

"If my initial contribution eventually advances future scholarship in Europe which one day garners sufficient credibility for some to give the Nephite record a closer, sincere look..."

That is a significant "if".  It shouldn't just be assumed, imo.

[hagoth7]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, if you don't like that saying..

It's not that I don't like the saying.

I just see it running contrary to what we're taught of the gospel. 

...you may finally realize that there was no place like home after all.

IUnderstood

And realized years ago.

I haven't been truly welcome in what you might deem a home in quite some time. 

My current understanding of scriptural and prophetic assurances regarding home,  family, and companionship might differ from yours.

So my priorities and path might llikewise seem to differ (for now). 

Feel free to criticize my temporary path, bearing, pace, and/or gait, if you wish.  

Meanwhile, something I gathered from the gender-neutral portion of the BYU devotional offered this week (on the anniversary of Joseph/Hyrum's parting) is precisely what I needed for a time such as this. 

Or try searching far and wide for the Blue Bird of Happiness, only to discover that it was in your own back yard all along.

Field of diamonds.  Etc. etc. Your meaning is understood. And I appreciate your concern.

That said, my current focus moves forward whether it has mortal support, volunteers, or companions. So I will continue on the assigned path and the selected course, alone for long stretches of time, if necessary, until I deem that work accomplished. Whether you (or others) choose to assist, and/or encourage, and/or ignore, and/or criticize becomes *your* path. God speed.

[hagoth7]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

"If my initial contribution eventually advances future scholarship in Europe which one day garners sufficient credibility for some to give the Nephite record a closer, sincere look..."

That is a significant "if". 

Yes.

 

And should you prefer, you are free to replace that modest "if" with a public "when." 

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

.. It shouldn't just be assumed...

Agreed.

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

20 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

And should you prefer, you are free to replace that modest "if" with a public "when." 

(Time travel.)

That "when" was fulfilled, long before I launched this thread. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

Intrigued by the submarine activity in this thread.

About 140 views, but only 4 participants in the poll.

[hagoth7]

Please keep in mind President Benson's vision for the Book of Mormon, and his wish that God's condemnation be rapidly lifted, and some of the recommended means for that to happen: 

"...I have a vision of artists putting into film, drama, literature, music, and paintings, great themes and great characters from the Book of Mormon..."

"...I challenge all of us to prayerfully consider steps that we can personally take to bring this new witness for Christ more fully into our own lives and into a world that so desperately needs it...."

(Added earlier today to the OP...but copied here...since those who have already visited the thread wouldn't otherwise see/consider it.)

Thoughts? (in the context of the OP)

Edited July 1, 2017 by hagoth7