Nephites in Europe

[probablyHagoth7]

William Jones asked about content/sources/methodology relating to Nephites in Europe.

We can explore some of those sources and related things in this thread, rather than derail elsewhere.

Edited April 17, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

Reminds me of the assertions of "British Israel," and the like, which may somehow be related, and which is pointed up by the favorite English anthem:  "Jerusalem" by William Blake (𐐽a. 1804)

 And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon England's mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On England's pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In England's green & pleasant Land.

 

 

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Reminds me of the assertions of "British Israel," and the like, which may somehow be related, and which is pointed up by the favorite English anthem:  "Jerusalem" by William Blake (𐐽a. 1804)

 And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon England's mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On England's pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In England's green & pleasant Land.

 

 

My old mission anthem.

Good times.

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Reminds me of the assertions of "British Israel," and the like, which may somehow be related, and which is pointed up by the favorite English anthem:  "Jerusalem" by William Blake (𐐽a. 1804)

...I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In England's green & pleasant Land.

The Worldwide Church of God jettisoned some valuable things. Unfortunate for them.

Edited April 17, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[probablyHagoth7]

William, if you decide you want to actually address a fraction of the evidence, would you prefer an initial foray into ancient Roman sources? Or early Germanic sources? Or a bit of both?

[William Jones]

6 hours ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

William, if you decide you want to actually address a fraction of the evidence, would you prefer an initial foray into ancient Roman sources? Or early Germanic sources? Or a bit of both?

I would like to see a connection between the old and new world if you have it. You know, something connecting europe to the yucatan dating around the time of christ would be nice. Is your "evidence" merely the mentioning of mysterious seafaring people by some romans and germanic peoples, who could have come from anywhere? 

Incidentially, why do you need to bury the lede? Just give us the evidence, front and center? Or are you not that confident in it? What does the evidence look like anyway? Is that where we are headed a la Jenkins/Hamblin?

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, William Jones said:

I would like to see a connection between the old and new world if you have it. You know, something connecting europe to the yucatan dating around the time of christ would be nice.

I don't know a whole lot about this topic but I've always been baffled by this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca_head
 

[William Jones]

21 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I don't know a whole lot about this topic but I've always been baffled by this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca_head
 

Interesting, but the article points out that its origin is inconclusive at present.  Perhaps the church needs to fund the research into these artifacts in order to make the connection?  Just imagine the jump in converts if Israelites could be conclusively placed in the Americas between 600 BC and 421 AD?

[clarkgoble]

56 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I don't know a whole lot about this topic but I've always been baffled by this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca_head

That is very interesting. But it seems its providence is problematic at the moment. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Rajah Manchou]

24 minutes ago, William Jones said:

Interesting, but the article points out that its origin is inconclusive at present.  Perhaps the church needs to fund the research into these artifacts in order to make the connection?  Just imagine the jump in converts if Israelites could be conclusively placed in the Americas between 600 BC and 421 AD?

The timing isn't right to bolster BoM claims, but given the topic of this thread I suppose there could be some relevance. 

However, the RLDS (CoC) seem to be more open to post-Lehite/Mulekite migrations. There's a guy named Neil Steede who has done quite a bit of research into the the possibility of Roman influence at Comalcalco, a younger Mayan site, but unusual in that it is built from kiln-fired bricks and mortar instead of stone. Many of those bricks have finger-markings that supposedly resemble markings found in the Old World. 

http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/1241-did-you-know-mayan-pyramid-in-tabasco-mexico-has-possible-roman-links

I don't know much about Steede, and I definitely have reservations about nearly all his claims, but it is interesting to how the RLDS Book of Mormon scholars approach Mesoamerican archaeology. But I am curious why LDS scholars completely ignore this city of Comalcalco. For example, a search on this board turns up nothing.

[RevTestament]

37 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The timing isn't right to bolster BoM claims, but given the topic of this thread I suppose there could be some relevance. 

However, the RLDS (CoC) seem to be more open to post-Lehite/Mulekite migrations. There's a guy named Neil Steede who has done quite a bit of research into the the possibility of Roman influence at Comalcalco, a younger Mayan site, but unusual in that it is built from kiln-fired bricks and mortar instead of stone. Many of those bricks have finger-markings that supposedly resemble markings found in the Old World. 

http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/1241-did-you-know-mayan-pyramid-in-tabasco-mexico-has-possible-roman-links

I don't know much about Steede, and I definitely have reservations about nearly all his claims, but it is interesting to how the RLDS Book of Mormon scholars approach Mesoamerican archaeology. But I am curious why LDS scholars completely ignore this city of Comalcalco. For example, a search on this board turns up nothing.

You come up with the most interesting tidbits of info Rajah. Brick in the New World. How about studies as to how it was made? Can it be shown to be strawed or have other similarities to Egyptian or Eastern brick? I personally feel there are Egyptian connections with the New World. This is just one more peg in the coffin so to speak. Others are Tobacco beetles in the Mediterranean, Colossal heads in Mesoamerica, etc.

[Rajah Manchou]

3 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

You come up with the most interesting tidbits of info Rajah. Brick in the New World. How about studies as to how it was made? Can it be shown to be strawed or have other similarities to Egyptian or Eastern brick? I personally feel there are Egyptian connections with the New World. This is just one more peg in the coffin so to speak. Others are Tobacco beetles in the Mediterranean, Colossal heads in Mesoamerica, etc.

Interesting, but there's not much written up about it, so rather than assume it is evidence of Romans in Mesoamerica, or Nephites in Rome, the safer bet is to stay within the boundaries of what is known. It's possible that brick-firing technologies came over with later migrations across the Bering Strait or skirting the Pacific Coast. Or even safer, that the Maya figured out how to fire bricks independently. 

Steede proposes that the technology came from Southeast Asia during the earlier phases of Indianization starting around the 3rd century AD. He draws comparisons between the layout of Comalcalco and the Khmer trading port of Oc-eo. Very similar Roman artifacts have been found in Oc-eo dated to the same century, so Steede's enormous assumption is that the Roman artifacts and technologies were carried across the Pacific by gnostic Christians. He doesn't go as far as identifying them as Nephites, but since he is a Mormon archaeologist, its hard not to read between the lines. Here's the paper if anyone is interested:

http://www.migration-diffusion.info/pdfdownload.php?id=122&file=1

[William Jones]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The timing isn't right to bolster BoM claims, but given the topic of this thread I suppose there could be some relevance. 

However, the RLDS (CoC) seem to be more open to post-Lehite/Mulekite migrations. There's a guy named Neil Steede who has done quite a bit of research into the the possibility of Roman influence at Comalcalco, a younger Mayan site, but unusual in that it is built from kiln-fired bricks and mortar instead of stone. Many of those bricks have finger-markings that supposedly resemble markings found in the Old World. 

http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/1241-did-you-know-mayan-pyramid-in-tabasco-mexico-has-possible-roman-links

I don't know much about Steede, and I definitely have reservations about nearly all his claims, but it is interesting to how the RLDS Book of Mormon scholars approach Mesoamerican archaeology. But I am curious why LDS scholars completely ignore this city of Comalcalco. For example, a search on this board turns up nothing.

Thanks for the response.

[Bobbieaware]

On 4/17/2017 at 0:30 AM, probablyHagoth7 said:

William Jones asked about content/sources/methodology relating to Nephites in Europe.

We can explore some of those sources and related things in this thread, rather than derail elsewhere.

Have you and your brother ever written anything on how Zenos' "parable of the olive tree" may fit into the Nephites in Europe model? If so, I would be interested to read what you have to say.

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

Have you and your brother ever written anything on how Zenos' "parable of the olive tree" may fit into the Nephites in Europe model? If so, I would be interested to read what you have to say.

He and I discussed Zenos years ago, and I wrote a bit about it, but haven't published any of it, other than the briefest of commentary early on: page 13. http://candlestickstudio.com/files/Nephites.pdf#page=13 

If I come across my notes from years back, and/or come across the old set of scriptures where I made most of my initial commentary within Jacob, those are things I'd be happy to share. (I recently moved, and have started going through old boxes to sort/organize/toss. Hoping to come across those things in the near future.)  

Edited April 18, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[probablyHagoth7]

On 4/17/2017 at 7:27 AM, William Jones said:

I would like to see a connection between the old and new world if you have it. You know, something connecting europe to the yucatan dating around the time of christ would be nice...

That would require MesoAmerica to be Nephite central. Can't help you with that.  (Not yet an advocate for any specific Nephite location in the Americas.)

However, I believe European research equips us to triangulate backwards and thereby locate Nephite homeland(s) in the Americas...because in Europe, we have a clearer bead on where Nephites actually were. 

On 4/17/2017 at 7:27 AM, William Jones said:

Is your "evidence" merely the mentioning of mysterious seafaring people by some romans and germanic peoples, who could have come from anywhere? 

No. 

On 4/17/2017 at 7:27 AM, William Jones said:

Incidentally, why do you need to bury the lede?

I have no such need.

On 4/17/2017 at 7:27 AM, William Jones said:

Just give us the evidence, front and center? Or are you not that confident in it?

You underestimate the breadth and depth of the evidence. 

On 4/17/2017 at 7:27 AM, William Jones said:

What does the evidence look like anyway?

The most important evidence is found in a mirror.

The remainder is quite vast, and already fills untold libraries, bookstores, collections, museums, labs, websites, homes, etc.

Edited April 20, 2017 by probablyHagoth7