Nefi - Book of Mormon onramp

[hagoth7]

 

1. A few hundred views of the initial installment (w/the poll), but only 5 poll responses from members, and 0 would put it to use.

2. Another thinks it's a good-intention road to Oz

3. Another thinks it likely wouldn't help lead someone to Christ

 

Tough room.

 

Summary:

BofM Onramp #1 (Scef/Jo-Seph in ancient Europe)

BofM Onramp #2 (Hadugoth/Hagoth in ancient Europe)

Edited July 4, 2017 by hagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

1. A few hundred views of the initial installment (w/the poll), but only 5 poll responses from members, and 0 would put it to use.

2. Another thinks it's a good-intention road to Oz

3. Another thinks it likely wouldn't help lead someone to Christ

Tough room.

Yeh, but did you really expect to run the table?

[hagoth7]

58 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yeh, but did you really expect to run the table?

Not sure what you mean.

 

Had simply hoped/expected *some* here would find such things beneficial.

Edited July 3, 2017 by hagoth7

[Thinking]

2 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Not sure what you mean.

In sports, running the table means a team wins all its games. A thread that runs the table on a message board would be the most popular one.

2 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Had simply hoped/expected *some* here would find such things beneficial.

So you start a new thread to explore why the first one didn't get many replies? That's like a DJ nobody will hire crashing weddings and asking why they hired that other DJ.

[hagoth7]

15 hours ago, Thinking said:

So you start a new thread to explore why the first one didn't get many replies?..

No, actually. The purpose of this thread is (1) as a placeholder for the pending Nefi content which I am in the process of deciding whether to upload, and (2) an attempt to garner feedback to help me determine whether there' is sufficient interest/willingness among others to even try using such European research/memes to help others. (For example, I recently began discussion with my ward mission leader about this approach, and look forward to his feedback and suggestions.)

Does that clarify? 

 

So my opening post in this thread simply included initial reflection/concern, (now snowballing with you) while deciding whether to move forward with this here...or to take it elsewhere.  If such things are not gonna be used/tried by anyone here,  it makes zero sense honing/sharing/discussing onramp memes that never leave this forum's shelf.

 

What puzzles/concerns me is this:

1. Studies on Akkadian, Babylonian, Sumerian and Egyptian cuture are deemed suitable/valuable for learning, relative to the Restoration

2. Ditto for most any facet of native American culture, including, for example, the recent thread on Stubbs' research.

3. But for some reason, although we're commanded to study nations, languages, etc. for the purpose of furthering the work, any plow or hook or net or onramp fashioned from European culture to meet parallel objectives..is instead currently met (in this forum at least) with ongoing incredulity or silence. Even though some of us trace much our heritage there, and even though Nephi's plea to see his father's vision of posterity was rewarded with a vision that encompassed the march of European civilization....etc. 

So I'm scratching my head wondering why Europe is currently/apparently deemed parallel to Samaria, where nothing of any value can supposedly come out of it. (Or perhaps the silence means something else. Which is why I'm requesting feedback.)

Riffing on a scene from Princess Bride. Regarding the four fastest ships supposedly sent to find her Wesley. Scripture promised that Israel (including Lehi's seed) would be scattered to the four corners of the world. Yet as a people, we commit resources to send research/provision/rescue culture-ships to (1) the Middle East, and (2) ancient America. But not so much other regions/cultures (fx. Europe).

Why?

By that why, I'm not insisting that people change. I'm genuinely wanting to understand....What am I overlooking?

Edited July 4, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

In sports, running the table means a team wins all its games. A thread that runs the table on a message board would be the most popular one.

Not interested in being deemed most popular...or even popular. That's not why I engage here.

Simply interested to know if such things are gonna be used, and if not, or if not *yet*,, hopefully constructive feedback on that.

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

...That's like a DJ nobody will hire crashing weddings and asking why they hired that other DJ.

I know full well why MIddle-East research gets plenty of play. And think that's awesome.  And I know full well why ancient American research gets plenty of play....ditto on that.

Not asking to be a DJ, and on that note, have already said earlier this week that I'm pulling the plug on the grid soon to shift focus to other needed things. . Just asking, in parting, what's wrong with the occasional Scottish jig or German waltz to widen the tent of our playlist in order to invite/include people with different tates/interests/backgrounds.

Edited July 3, 2017 by hagoth7

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

By that why, I'm not insisting that people change. I'm genuinely wanting to understand....What am I overlooking?

I think the history and culture you are trying to tie to Hagoth is not as popularly known or as well-researched as the others you mentioned, making it difficult to find and present "bulls-eyes" with footnotes and bibliographies.

[hagoth7]

37 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think the history and culture...is not as popularly known....

Agreed.

...making it difficult to...present "bulls-eyes"...

Yep.

Most of the ancestral heroes and histories of northern Europe were jettisoned from our education (and discarded from our public libraries) generations ago.

Too many other things screamed for attention in the industrial/information ages.

So unlike centuries ago, you can't just namedrop Scyld or Scef or Lombards or Nibelungs and jump to the the relevant keystone that connects the Nephite side of the arch/vault with the European side.

(Unlike Near Eastern or ancient American culture.)

Instead, you generally have to spend most of that interaction rebuilding the crumbled/forgotten side of European heritage. And that learning curve *can* be deemed too much work for some. Which is why I'm pivoting some of this effort to video and interacdtive anims. For many, especially for many in the target audience, text-heavy approaches to that much new content simply ain't gonna cut it.

[The Nehor]

I find your approach to explaining Book of Mormon influence on Europe less compelling then I do current attempts to explain where the Nephites lived in the Americas. I would harder to believe both. I do not see how it could lead people to accepting the Book of Mormon. It might but I do not see it.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Not sure what you mean.

Had simply hoped/expected *some* here would find such things beneficial.

My reference is to "running" a pool table -- every ball into a pocket without a mistake, never giving the other guy a chance to play.  So, do you expect to run the table?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, hagoth7 said:

Agreed.

Yep.

Most of the ancestral heroes and histories of northern Europe were jettisoned from our education (and discarded from our public libraries) generations ago.

Too many other things screamed for attention in the industrial/information ages.

So unlike centuries ago, you can't just namedrop Scyld or Scef or Lombards or Nibelungs and jump to the the relevant keystone that connects the Nephite side of the arch/vault with the European side.

(Unlike Near Eastern or ancient American culture.)

Instead, you generally have to spend most of that interaction rebuilding the crumbled/forgotten side of European heritage. And that learning curve *can* be deemed too much work for some. Which is why I'm pivoting some of this effort to video and interacdtive anims. For many, especially for many in the target audience, text-heavy approaches to that much new content simply ain't gonna cut it.

And of course there is the matter of not being able to tease out, considering the vagueness of folkoristics, convergent history such as the "child in a boat" origins, which was also true of Moses as the originator of the wandering lost tribes of Israel, who eventually ended up in northern Europe. But with all those seafaring people, the odds of having an ancestor who was an adopted displaced lone child in a boat is also very high.

You mentioned "meme" earlier -- there must also be a threshold number of people within the modern culture you have in mind who can easily recognize, buy into and spread the themes you've identified within said culture.

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

My reference is to "running" a pool table...

Pool?!!! 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...every ball into a pocket without a mistake...

I make several.

And will likely make plenty more. 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...never giving the other guy a chance to play...

I have been patiently awaiting reinforcements on the European front for about a decade now.

And would willingly pass the baton(s) to a new generation, so that I can shift gears/focus to other things/people. 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...So, do you expect to run the table?

Nope.

Edited July 3, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

And of course there is the matter of not being able to tease out...who eventually ended up in northern Europe.

I hope you're not suggesting such a task is undoable. Are you?

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

...with all those seafaring people, the odds of having an ancestor who was...displaced...child in a boat is also very high.

True. I have a few of them in my family tree-house. Many of us do.

(I won't repeat their names.)  

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

You mentioned "meme" earlier -- there must also be a threshold number of people within the modern culture you have in mind who can easily recognize, buy into and spread the themes you've identified within said culture.

A threshold number? Hmm.

300 would be awesome. (Thermopylae, but who ideally get to live.)  200 would do.

Left handed is optional

Who lap water like a dog (or my son's hamster). Which means "always looking up", per recent stake conf.

Ideally Amazonian (less ego...)        

       (and since Lombard women could pretend to have beards to go to battle...)

        (....picturing my grandpa and uncles in wig/dress...there is photo evidence...)

 

The most likely early adopters "who can easily recognize and buy into" such a meme would be those who already believe the Book of Mormon to be true.  But I would love to see a few pick up the sword who initially cross over from the secular side of the European narrative and wheel into formation...to add their perspective to the Borg hive collective.

 

To be frank/Frankish/Merovingian (pun intended), it would be cool to see such a memetic pollination pickup steam soon. Ideally very soon. (I have a few other projects that need attention.)

https://www.google.com/search?q=bees+merovingian&client=tablet-android-verizon&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPgtKioe7UAhUX32MKHbXPA2cQ_AUICSgB&biw=962&bih=601#imgrc=XIZF_jD1T3Vn-M:

Edited July 4, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

3 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

A threshold number? Hmm.

300 would be awesome. (Thermopylae, but who ideally get to live.)  200 would do.

Left handed is optional

Who lap water like a dog (or my son's hamster). Which means "always looking up", per recent stake conf.

Ideally Amazonian (less ego...)

Oh, and a shrubbery.

 

A nice one.

[mfbukowski]

Does anyone want to supply a summary of what the heck is being talked about?

Someone needs a tutor in salesmanship 1 I fear- a followup thread needs at least a reference to the other thread for Pete's sake especially if one is trying to build readership

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

I hope you're not suggesting such a task is undoable. Are you?

True. I have a few of them in my family tree-house. Many of us do.

(I won't repeat their names.)  

A threshold number? Hmm.

300 would be awesome. (Thermopylae, but who ideally get to live.)  200 would do.

Left handed is optional

Who lap water like a dog (or my son's hamster). Which means "always looking up", per recent stake conf.

Ideally Amazonian (less ego...)

 

The most likely early adopters "who can easily recognize and buy into" such a meme would be those who already believe the Book of Mormon to be true.  But I would love to see a few pick up the sword who initially cross over from the secular side of the European narrative and wheel into formation...to add their perspective to the Borg hive collective.

 

To be frank/Frankish/Merovingian (pun intended), it would be cool to see such a memetic pollination pickup steam soon. Ideally very soon. (I have a few other projects that need attention.)

https://www.google.com/search?q=bees+merovingian&client=tablet-android-verizon&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPgtKioe7UAhUX32MKHbXPA2cQ_AUICSgB&biw=962&bih=601#imgrc=XIZF_jD1T3Vn-M:

It aint gonna ever pick up if you dont summarize it every time

Salesmanship tells you no one knows who you are until they have heard your name at least 6 times- and then they just trecognize it as "familiar"

Have you ever notice an ad being played ONCE on television expecting to get a response???

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Does anyone want to supply a summary of what the heck is being talked about?

Someone needs a tutor in salesmanship 1 I fear- a followup thread needs at least a reference to the other thread for Pete's sake especially if one is trying to build readership

It would probably be a good idea to space them out a bit more so as to avoid the risk of getting on limited for "Repeated or multiple threads on the same topic (unless it is a unique sub-topic)" and not being able to start new threads.  

Personally, it is not a topic I am interested in, I was willing to read details from one thread because I think it is polite, but I am not going to do that more than once a week.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Calm

[hagoth7]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It aint gonna ever pick up if you dont summarize it every time

...at least 6 times- and then they just recognize it as "familiar"

Have you ever notice an ad being played ONCE on television expecting to get a response???

Helpful feedback.

Nephites in Europe is something I've actually posted about, just in *this* forum,  perhaps an average of over two posts per month...over the last decade or so (200+ posts likely isn't exaggeration)...occasionally in an OP of my own like this one, or in commentary relative to someone else's query about masonic origins, BofM prophecy, D&C prophecy, family history, Nephite historicity, Hagoth, the seasonal Christmas (elven) message, etc. So I have tried repeatedly to find a charitable balance between offering sufficiently-frequent substance here, without going overboard and becoming the community's broken record. (I'm OK being the broken clock, that's accurate twice/day). And throughout the majority of that time I have offered a 24x7 buffet offsite on such things for any who were so inclined, via URL's repeatedly offered, and embedded in my profiles.

Summary:

1. Nephites rocked Europe.

2  You helped. Thank you. (I should summarize more.)

3. I have tried to share. Repeatedly. At length. Imperfectly.

4. I love you all. More than you might imagine. It's been a genuine pleasure. 

Edited July 4, 2017 by hagoth7

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Helpful feedback.

Nephites in Europe is something I've actually posted about, just in *this* forum,  perhaps an average of over two posts per month...over the last decade or so (200+ posts likely isn't exaggeration)...occasionally in an OP of my own like this one, or in commentary relative to someone else's query about masonic origins, BofM prophecy, D&C prophecy, family history, Nephite historicity, Hagoth, the seasonal Christmas (elven) message, etc. So I have tried repeatedly to find a charitable balance between offering suffuciently-frequent substance here, without going overboard and becoming the community's broken record. (I'm OK being the broken clock, that's accurate twice a day month year). And throughout the majority of that time I have offered a 24x7 buffet offsite on such things for any who were so inclined, via URL's repeatedly offereed, and embedded in my profiles.

Summary:

1. Nephites rocked Europe.

2  You helped. Thank you. (I should summarized more.)

3. I have tried to share. Repeatedly. At length. Imperfectly.

4. I love you all. More than you might imagine. It's been a genuine pleasure. 

Hey join the club!  You could have made it one LOOONG thread so as not to duplicate.  Seeing one thread repeatedly quoted is just as effective as having multiple threads- at least those interested can go back and check what is happening

I know what you are about and find it interesting but what the heck has the tile of this thread have to do with that?

Why "Nefi" instead of Nephi and what is this about an onramp?

Your product could be one loooong thread about it- start off with a catchy title that will attract attention and let it grow, and add new stuff occasionally to keep it new for those interested

Edited July 4, 2017 by mfbukowski

[hagoth7]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

It would probably be a good idea to space them out a bit more so as to avoid the risk of getting on limited...

However, limited status is a non-issue. As mentioned in Social recently, I'm wrapping up here and on my way out.

As to board rules, if three threads on 3 different people (Joseph, Hagoth, and Nephi) - each spanning centuries of European history is a violation/imposition, that was not my intent. I genuinely thought (and still believe) that a seperate thread for each of those was in the best interests of any who might wish to follow/comment in one of them..

But MFB was right. Shoulda provided links betwen the three threads for any so inclined...unfortunately the system only allows a short fuse to modify/improve a post before it's locked in stone. 

And spacing them out is a great suggestion. 

Edited July 4, 2017 by hagoth7

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

unfortunately the system only allows a short fuse to modify/improve a post before it's locked in stone. 

You might want to change your tech or your browser if that is a problem.  I can't edit half the time on my old iPad.  On this newer one (handmedown so still four years old), I can't edit maybe once a month or so.  I use Safari.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Does anyone want to supply a summary of what the heck is being talked about?

Someone needs a tutor in salesmanship 1 I fear- a followup thread needs at least a reference to the other thread for Pete's sake especially if one is trying to build readership

He needs a lesson from Professor Harold Hill.

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

He needs a lesson from Professor Harold Hill.

He does!

I love that- someone just posted that and I hadn't seen it for years!

[hagoth7]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

.You could have made it one LOOONG thread so as not to duplicate.  Seeing one thread repeatedly quoted is just as effective as having multiple threads- at least those interested can go back and check what is happening

Agreed. The thought process was that since each bio spanned centuries of European history, multiple BofM passages, and multiple European source docs, if people had commentary or questions on any *one* of them, it would have been easier to manage and follow (in theory) if broken out into 3 subtopics, one each for Joseph, Nephi, Hagoth. 

Perfect intent. Imperfect execution. 

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

...Why "Nefi" instead of Nephi...?

To gently shatter our expectations of standardized spelling/pronunciation in records spaning several centuries/languages/dialects/countries....especially when considering an era when there was *no such thing* as standardized spelling.. 

(i.e. a micro-second lateral-thinking stretch, repeated each time we glance at the title.) 

<---pot stirrer 

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

...the title of this thread...what is this about an onramp?

I basically view Nephites in Europe as a bulwark for those who already believe, and an onramp for some who hadn't previously had the first desire to believe. A greenhouse for the latter, if you will.

An intended means for a few more people to start investigating the restored Gospel. And also a fun way to start and segue conversation to the restored Gospel with friends/neighbors.   

Additional arrows in your quiver to segue the occasional non-member conversation on anything from history, family history, language, masonic origins, migrations, seafaring, cooking measurements, Book of Mormon historicity, prophecy, healing, elves, American history, twenty centuries of European history, archaeology, DNA, etc..a conversational swiss-army knife. 

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

...could be one loooong thread about it- start off with a catchy title that will attract attention and let it grow, and add new stuff occasionally to keep it new for those interested

Done that before, with mixed results. Occasionally works great, but with such a large number of subtopics, source docs, and centuries to cover, spanning most aspects of Nephite and European civ, the conversation can quickly get pretty tangled. (Ditto with three subtopic threads...oops.)  

 

Summary:

• Having onramp choices: good.
• Having quiver full: good.
• Highway to Oz - or to playing a role in fulfilling Pres. Benson's plea/vision? You choose.

Edited July 4, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

45 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

He needs a lesson from Professor Harold Hill.

I always believe there's a band.