Hadugoth - Book of Mormon onramp

[hagoth7]

Marching on to the beat of Nephites in Europe.

To the best of my reckoning:, Hagoth, in ancient Europe.

http://www.beowulfinstitute.com/Hadugoth.html

Comments?

Would you leverage a meme like this to help a friend/neighbor give the Book of Mormon due consideration? 

Edited July 2, 2017 by hagoth7

[CV75]

3 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Marching on to the beat of Nephites in Europe.

To the best of my reckoning:, Hagoth, in ancient Europe.

http://www.beowulfinstitute.com/Hadugoth.html

Comments?

Would you leverage a meme like this to help a friend/neighbor give the Book of Mormon due consideration? 

No, because I wouldn't want to distract him with detailed folkoristic studies that do not jibe with the Introduction and Chapter Headings found in the very book I'm inviting him to pray about, and that do not focus on the purposes in the Title Page. Jesus isn't even mentioned anywhere on that link.

[hagoth7]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

No, because I wouldn't want to distract him with detailed folkoristic studies that do not jibe with the Introduction and Chapter Headings found in the very book I'm inviting him to pray about, and that do not focus on the purposes in the Title Page. Jesus isn't even mentioned anywhere on that link.

You're funny, perhaps intentionally so.. Chapter headings?

Seriuosly, as to title page and its stated purpose:

"...which is to show unto the remant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers, and that they may know the covenants of the Lord...and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentie that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations...wherefore condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." 

Demonstrating that one's culture traces to Nephites isomehow doesn't work to such ends? How so?

As to Jesus not being mentioned initially, you do realize this is intended very specifically as an onramp for a now-mostly-secular audience, correct? Should I have instead begun with helfire and brimstone?  ;0)

As to not mentioning Jesus on that page...I'll decline to comment, assuming that stated concern is intentional hyperbole.

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

You're funny, perhaps intentionally so.. Chapter headings?

Seriuosly, as to title page and its stated purpose:

"...which is to show unto the remant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers, and that they may know the covenants of the Lord...and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentie that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations...wherefore condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." 

Demonstrating that one's culture traces to Nephites isomehow doesn't work to such ends? How so?

As to Jesus not being mentioned initially, you do realize this is intended very specifically as an onramp for a now-mostly-secular audience, correct? Should I have instead begun with helfire and brimstone?  ;0)

As to not mentioning Jesus on that page...I'll decline to comment, assuming that stated concern is intentional hyperbole.

You asked what I would do, and why.

Whatever the quality of the Introduction and Chapter Headings, your suggestion adds a wrinkle that I think could distract from the core message that “that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.” The Book of Mormon isn’t presented as the testimony of Christ as recorded and preserved by a remnant of Israel in Europe. I hope that someday such a book surfaces!

Hagoth was a Nephite, and the remnant of the house of Israel in the Title Page is the Lamanites. The “fathers” of the Title Page are those who kept and passed on the records (Jews in the brass plates, Nephites in the gold plates) by covenant and which were abridged into the Book of Mormon as a testimony of Christ. Hagoth was not one of those fathers, and his story as we have it in the Book of Mormon bears no record of the Christ.

Now the Book or Mormon was written for Jew and Gentile as well as the remnant of Israel connected to the Lamanites, so eventually its message is appropriate and should resonate with peoples around the globe, including the descendants of Hagoth.

If I had a secularly-minded friend that would entertain the study of Hagoth as his ancestor enough to motivate him read the Book of Mormon, I suppose he would also be open-minded / hearted enough to entertain the Spirit as I speak and testify of Jesus. This is why I would not be inclined to set him up to buy into such a history as you have presented while using the Book of Mormon to navigate the waters of conversion to Christ at the same time.

Simply put, the Book of Mormon is not about Hagoth in Europe or his testimony of Christ, nor about his role as a witnessing father to the Lamanite remnant, Jew, or Gentile. The folkloristics in the link require far more accessory investment from the core spiritual message than do the simple claims in the Introduction, Chapter Headings and Title Page of the Book of Mormon

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

You're funny, perhaps intentionally so.. Chapter headings?

I owe you an apology.

By referring to Chapter headings, I thought you were speaking of chapter headings *in the book of mormon.*  

(There was a thread recently discussing whether footnotes and such were deemed scripture or not.)
So I thought you might be riffing in jest on that earlier thread..

You're apparently referring instead to the topic title of this onramp thread and the previious onramp thread (Scef). FWIW, those aren't intended as chapter headings.

Apologies for completely misunderstanding your meaning.

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

You asked what I would do, and why.

I did.

And I appreciate your input, and your clearly-stated concens, and .have given your concerns due consideration.

 

Does any of this resolve your stated concerns?

1. There is ancient testimony, preserved from northern Europe, of Christ's visit there. So drawing someone back to their heritage there...is a means to testify of Christ.

2. Being grafted back into one's heritage in Europe (ibrought to a knowledge of one's fathers) is one means of bringing people back, through the Book of Mormon, to the fold of Christ, as promised in various places in scripture, including Jacob 5.  And while I appreciate the empasis on Lamanites, D&C 3 is clear that Nephites and Josephites were also to be recipients of that same promise inclusive of Lehi's seed.

3. Specific to *this* thread, the prophet-historians who have passed down the distilled version of the Book of Mormon opted, in their wisdom, to both record *and* preserve the deeds *and* name of Hagoth. Why do we need to know both? If such didn't/wouldn't serve to bring people to Christ...it would have been edited out (IMO). If you instead deem such verses are fluff/filler with no purpose and that lead to nowhere significant...

....with no intention for the other half of such things ever being completed to fulfill God's purposes/promises (to Lehi and others),  we very differing views of the intent and scope of the Book of Mormon, and of related promises.

 

Thoughts?

Edited July 2, 2017 by hagoth7

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

I owe you an apology.

By referring to Chapter headings, I thought you were speaking of chapter headings *in the book of mormon.*  

(There was a thread recently discussing whether footnotes and such were deemed scripture or not.)
So I thought you might be riffing in jest on that earlier thread..

You're apparently referring instead to the topic title of this onramp thread and the previious onramp thread (Scef). FWIW, those aren't intended as chapter headings.

Apologies for completely misunderstanding your meaning.

No apologies necessary. I am referring to the Chapter Headings in the Book of Mormon. They are not scripture, but an interpretive summary. Some might think they are not accurate summaries of doctrine or history, but whatever they are, the absence of a narrative in these headings, and on the whole including the introduction or scripture verses, about Hagoth in Europe might disappoint those relying on this connection to hold their enthusiasm about reading and praying about the book.

I have no issue per se with the content of your threads and links on the subject of Hagoth in Europe. I'm not enough of a historian to discuss anything more than my gut reaction. It seems he was prolific enough a mariner to have gone and colonized isles in either or both hemispheres. At the same time I'm not enough of a historian to propose anything other than what the book portrays in the way of history (whether by translation or more modern summary) to offer any spin-off interpretation for non-testifying figures like Hagoth.

[hagoth7]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It seems he was prolific enough a mariner to have gone and colonized isles in either or both hemispheres.

I agree, and believe, per Alma 63 and Helaman, that his ships embarked in different seas taking different bearings. He clearly didn't embark on each such voyage, at least not on the first one.

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

...for non-testifying figures like Hagoth.

The European accounts provide testimony from him...(which additionally serves to turn ones hearts to one's Book of Mormon fathers, part of Moroni's express concern).

It wouldn't surprise me if, one day soon, we have Hagoth's *written* testimony.

Edited July 2, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

Further thought on Hagoth, and testifying of Christ.

All things tesitfy of him.

The nature of Hagoth's death by scourging and crucifixion testifies of and foreshadows Christ.

As did the things he said and led his people to do, prior to that.

Fx., Germans ( = brothers/sisters).

Forgiveness, instead of vengeance. 

Being known by their neighbors as "the faithful." Faithful in what? I  believe we'll one day soon have further answer on tthat.

[CV75]

27 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

I did.

And I appreciate your input, and your clearly-stated concens, and .have given your concerns due consideration.

 

Does any of this resolve your stated concerns?

1. There is ancient testimony, preserved from northern Europe, of Christ's visit there. So drawing someone back to their heritage there...is a means to testify of Christ.

2. Being grafted back into one's heritage in Europe (ibrought to a knowledge of one's fathers) is one means of bringing people back, through the Book of Mormon, to the fold of Christ, as promised in various places in scripture, including Jacob 5.  And while I appreciate the empasis on Lamanites, D&C 3 is clear that Nephites and Josephites were also to be recipients of that same promise inclusive of Lehi's seed.

3. Specific to *this* thread, the prophet-historians who have passed down the distilled version of the Book of Mormon opted, in their wisdom, to both record *and* preserve the deeds *and* name of Hagoth. Why do we need to know both? If such didn't/wouldn't serve to bring people to Christ...it would have been edited out (IMO). If you instead deem such verses are fluff/filler with no purpose and that lead to nowhere significant...

....with no intention for the other half of such things ever being completed to fulfill God's purposes/promises (to Lehi and others),  we very differing views of the intent and scope of the Book of Mormon, and of related promises.

Thoughts?

I have no qualms about #1, but these histories do not resonate with me like the first pages of the Book of Mormon does. I have no qualms about the motivation expressed in #2, but it is not a key motivator for me or the people I know; the first few pages of the book are more effective in drawing me into it. For #3, perhaps like the war accounts with which this migration is associated, it offers an example of how the Nephites became a disunified people (both by land and by sea, and mostly unnamed parties as in verses 4, 8, 9 and 10). They left the civilization of judges and the priests to fulfill their dreams elsewhere. There may be a lesson in there about the "movement" to watch for among the "Nephites" of today. But by the time you get to that point in the book, you're eager to get to the end and not dwell on that (LOL). And there is always the sealed portion containing the "other half."

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

I agree, and believe, per Alma 63 and Helaman, that his ships embarked in different seas taking different bearings. He clearly didn't embark on each such voyage, at least not on the first one.

The European accounts provide testimony from him...(which additionally serves to turn ones hearts to one's Book of Mormon fathers, part of Moroni's express concern).

It wouldn't surprise me if, one day soon, we have Hagoth's *written* testimony.

I am not concerned about the arguments for believing these things, but I wouldn't use them as a inducement for reading the Book of Mormon since they don't have anything to do with the Title Page which Mormon wrote, which is the primary key to reading the Book of Mormon. Hagoth was not a record-keeper that Mormon put out there as one of the fathers. If another book by another sheep was written by Hagoth as a father of that remnant of the house of Israel, it will be exciting when it comes to light. None of these European accounts effectively testify of the various elements of the Restoration.