Duncan Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Just now, rodheadlee said: Oh please, it was under Obama that this has already happened. Lighting the White House with the rainbow flag celebrating sexual deviancy as the new normal, calling evil good, murdering millions of unborn babies under the guise of women's rights. Now we have protesters rioting, refusing to be ruled by the law and instead accepting defeat graciously are destroying property. When will you folks understand that Trump was the master of hyperbole. He is still restricted in what he can do by the Constitution, Congress and the Supreme Court. Our family prayed that he would be humble in victory and by his first speech it appears our prayers were answered. I didn't know Baal worship still existed! Obama tried to save your nation. You talk about sexual deviancy as the new normal, well you got Trump so sexual deviancy appears now to be the new normal. Do you think Trump even knows the constitution?! 3
Gray Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 44 minutes ago, Duncan said: I didn't know Baal worship still existed! Obama tried to save your nation. You talk about sexual deviancy as the new normal, well you got Trump so sexual deviancy appears now to be the new normal. Do you think Trump even knows the constitution?! Trump is possibly the most venal man ever elected president. There is no moral high ground for Trump supporters. 1
Gray Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 8 hours ago, Darren10 said: No, they won't reflect that. The Church places a VERY high emphasis for its top hiearchal leaders to NOT make public their political candidate. Deseret News' political opionion is completely independent than the Church's leadership. They can't directly support political candidates as it puts them at risk to lose tax exemption. But the Deseret News is never going to to go against the feelings of the leaders of the church. Don't kid yourself.
Tacenda Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Duncan said: I didn't know Baal worship still existed! Obama tried to save your nation. You talk about sexual deviancy as the new normal, well you got Trump so sexual deviancy appears now to be the new normal. Do you think Trump even knows the constitution?! I have a feeling there are going to be some tired cabinet members in the next few years. Trump is use to everyone doing things for him. 1
bluebell Posted November 9, 2016 Author Posted November 9, 2016 9 hours ago, Duncan said: do you think he'll actually send her to jail? Oh man, i hope not. That will make things so much worse. Trump needs to work to unify America (if that's even possible), not do stuff to deepen the divide. 2
The Nehor Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, bluebell said: Oh man, i hope not. That will make things so much worse. Trump needs to work to unify America (if that's even possible), not do stuff to deepen the divide. I really hope he lied about most of his campaign promises. 3
bluebell Posted November 9, 2016 Author Posted November 9, 2016 8 hours ago, bsjkki said: For those wondering how Trump won Michael Moore explains the frustration of the blue collar worker and the voters who have been left behind by our current economy. Scroll down and watch the edited version of this video. It explains this outcome. http://mobile.wnd.com/2016/10/michael-moore-heres-why-trump-will-win-election/ If i remember right, Moore also says that Americans are going to be very very sorry that they fell for Trump, right?
bsjkki Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: If i remember right, Moore also says that Americans are going to be very very sorry that they fell for Trump, right? Yes he did! He is completely against Trump. This video was a warning about what he was hearing and listening to. Trump was the only one who also heard and listened to the blue collar workers in America and spoke directly to them. This was the "voter" that put Trump in office. The GOPe and the Democrats were not listening. I posted this as an explanation for those who don't understand how this result happened. 3
Marmonboy Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: He'd have to be an idiot with no political instincts at all to ignite a partisan war by arresting a presidential candidate on charges that multiple federal agencies and bipartisan commissions have refused to prosecute for. So yes, I think Donald might do that. I also worry the powers of the Presidency will be turned on the women who accused him of sexual assault, all media outlets that Trump imagines conspired against him, and possibly the Democratic Party and even Republicans that did not give their full support to Donald. I hope this scenario does not happen. Donald isn't the president that will be issuing the pardon.
Daniel2 Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) It's been a long 24 hours... I found a lot of value in the following article: Quote How to Get Beyond Our Tribal Politics Whether Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump wins Tuesday, understanding the psychological causes of our national rift can help us bridge it By Jonathan Haidt and Ravi Iyer Updated Nov. 4, 2016 11:05 a.m. ET The most-watched made-for-TV movie in American history is “The Day After,” a 1983 portrayal of life in Kansas and Missouri in the days just before and after an all-out nuclear war with the Soviet Union. If you’ve had even fleeting thoughts that Tuesday’s election could bring about the end of the world or the destruction of the country, you might want to find “The Day After” on YouTube, scroll to minute 53 and watch the next six minutes. Now that’s an apocalypse. It’s an absurd comparison, of course, but the absurdity is helpful. It reminds us that no matter how bad things seem, we have a lot to be grateful for. The Soviet Union is gone, and life in America has gotten much better since the 1980s by most objective measures. Crime is way down, prosperity and longevity are way up, and doors are open much more widely for talented people from just about any demographic group. Yes, we have new problems, and the benefits haven’t been spread evenly, but if you look at the big picture, we are making astonishing progress. Watching “The Day After” also might help Americans to tone down the apocalyptic language that so many have used about the presidential race. On the right, some speak of this as the “Flight 93 election,” meaning that America has been hijacked by treasonous leftists who are trying to crash the plane, so electing Donald Trump to rush the cockpit is the only sane choice. On the left, some think that a Trump victory would lead to a constitutional crisis followed by a military coup, fascism and dictatorship. Nearly half the country will therefore wake up deeply disappointed on the morning of Nov. 9, and many members of the losing side will think that America is doomed. Those on the winning side will feel relieved, but many will be shocked and disgusted that nearly half of their fellow citizens voted for the moral equivalent of the devil. The disgust expressed by both sides in this election is particularly worrisome because disgust dehumanizes its targets. That is why it is usually fostered by the perpetrators of genocide—disgust makes it easier for ordinary citizens to kill their neighbors. In short, the day after this election is likely to be darker and more foreboding than the day after just about any U.S. election since 1860. Is it possible for Americans to forgive, accept and carry on working and living together? We think that it is. After all, civility doesn’t require consensus or the suspension of criticism. It is simply the ability to disagree productively with others while respecting their sincerity and decency. That can be hard to do when emotions run so high. But if we understand better the psychological causes of our current animosity, we can all take some simple steps to turn it down, free ourselves from hatred and make the next four years better for ourselves and the country. Three time-honored quotations can serve as guides. “Me against my brother, my brothers and me against my cousins, then my cousins and me against strangers.” —Bedouin saying Human nature is tribal. We form teams easily, most likely because we have evolved for violent intergroup conflict. Our minds take to it so readily that we invent myths, games and sports—including war games like paintball—that let us enjoy the pleasures of intergroup conflict without the horrors of actual war. The tribal mind is adept at changing alliances to face shifting threats, as the Bedouin saying indicates. We see such shifts after party primaries, when those who backed a losing candidate swing around to support the nominee. And we saw it happen after the 9/11 attacks, when the country came together to support the president and the military in the invasion of Afghanistan. But with the exception of the few months after 9/11, cross-partisan animosity has been rising steadily since the late 1990s. This year, for the first time since Pew Research began asking in 1994, majorities in both parties expressed not just “unfavorable” views of the other party but “very unfavorable” views. Those ratings were generally below 20% throughout the 1990s. And more than 40% in each party now see the policies of the other party as being “so misguided that they threaten the nation’s well-being.” Those numbers are up by about 10% in both parties just since 2014. So what will happen the next time there is a major terrorist attack? Will we come together again? Or will the attack become a partisan football within hours, as happened after the various lone-wolf attacks of the past year? Something is broken in American tribalism. It is now “my brothers and me against my cousins” all the time, even when we are threatened by strangers and even when there is no threat at all. Democracy requires trust and cooperation as well as competition. A healthy democracy features flexible and shifting coalitions. We must find a way to see citizens on the other side as cousins who are sometimes opponents but who share most of our values and interests and are never our mortal enemies. “Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?… You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye.” —Jesus, in Matthew 7:3-5 Our tribal minds are equipped with a powerful tool: shameless and clueless hypocrisy. It is a general rule of psychology that “thinking is for doing”: We think with a particular purpose in mind, and often that purpose isn’t to find the truth but to defend ourselves or attack our opponents. Psychologists call this process “motivated reasoning.” It is found whenever self-interest is in play. When the interests of a group are added to the mix, this sort of biased, god-awful reasoning becomes positively virtuous—it signals your loyalty to the team. This is why partisans find it so easy to dismiss scandalous revelations about their own candidate while focusing so intently on scandalous revelations about the other candidate. Motivated reasoning has interacted with tribalism and new media technologies since the 1990s in unfortunate ways. Social media, hackers and Google searches now help us to find hundreds of specks in our opponents’ eyes, but no technology can force us to acknowledge the logs in our own. “Nature has so formed us that a certain tie unites us all, but…this tie becomes stronger from proximity.” —Cicero, “On Friendship” Humans are tribal, but tribalism can be transcended. It exists in tension with our extraordinary ability to develop bonds with other human beings. Romeo and Juliet fell in love. French, British and German soldiers came out of their trenches in World War I to exchange food, cigarettes and Christmas greetings. The key, as Cicero observed, is proximity, and a great deal of modern research backs him up. Students are more likely to become friends with the student whose dorm room is one door away than with the student whose room is four doors away. People who have at least one friend from the other political party are less likely to hate the supporters of that party. But tragically, Americans are losing their proximity to those on the other side and are spending more time in politically purified settings. Since the 1980s, Democrats have been packing into the cities while the rural areas and exurbs have been getting more Republican. Institutions that used to bring people together—such as churches—are now splitting apart over culture war issues such as gay marriage. Ever more of our social life is spent online, in virtual communities or networks that are politically homogeneous. When we do rub up against the other side online, relative anonymity often leads to stunning levels of incivility, including racist and sexist slurs and threats of violence. So are we doomed? Will the polarizing trends identified by Pew just keep going until the country splits in two? Maybe John Adams was right in 1814 when he wrote, “Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself.” But we have lasted 240 years so far, and both sides agree that America is worth fighting for. We just have to see that the fight isn’t always against each other; it is also a struggle to adapt our democracy and our habits for polarizing times and technologies. Some of these adaptations will require changes to laws and institutions. Some will come from improving technology as we fine-tune social media to reward productive disagreement while filtering out trolling and intimidation. And many of the changes must come from each of us, as individuals who have friends, co-workers and cousins who voted for the other side. How will we treat them as customers, employees, students and neighbors? What will we say to them at Thanksgiving dinner? If you would like to let go of anger on Nov. 9 without letting go of your moral and political principles, here is some advice, adapted from ancient wisdom and modern research. First, separate your feelings about Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton from your feelings about their supporters. Political scientists report that since the 1980s, Americans have increasingly voted against the other side’s candidate, rather than voting enthusiastically for their own, and that is especially true this time. So don’t assume that most people on the other side like or even agree with their candidate on any particular issue. They may be voting out of fears and frustrations that you don’t understand, but if you knew their stories, you might well empathize with them. Second, step back and think about your goals. In the long run, would you rather change people or hate them? If you actually want to persuade or otherwise influence people, you should know that it is nearly impossible to change people’s minds by arguing with them. When there is mutual antipathy, there is mutual motivated reasoning, defensiveness and hypocrisy. But anything that opens the heart opens the mind as well, so do what you can to cultivate personal relationships with those on the other side. Spend time together, and let the proximity recommended by Cicero strengthen ties. Familiarity does not breed contempt. Research shows that as things or people become familiar, we like them more. Emotions often drive reasoning, so as our hearts harden, our thinking also calcifies, and we become dogmatic. We are less able to think flexibly and address the social problems that we claim to care about. As John Stuart Mill wrote in 1859, “He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that.” So cultivating a few cross-partisan friendships will make you smarter as well as calmer, even if polarization grows worse. And if you do find a way to have a real conversation with someone on the other side, approach it skillfully. One powerful opener is to point to a log in your own eye—to admit right up front that you or your side were wrong about something. Doing this at the start of a conversation signals that you aren’t in combat mode. If you are open, trusting and generous, your partner is likely to reciprocate. Another powerful depolarizing move is praise, as we saw in the second Clinton-Trump debate. After more than 90 minutes of antagonism, a member of the town-hall audience brought the evening to a close with this question: “Would either of you name one positive thing that you respect in one another?” Mrs. Clinton began with weak praise by saying that she respects Mr. Trump’s children. But then she made it strong and generous by noting how “incredibly able” those children are and how devoted they are to their father, adding, “I think that says a lot about Donald.” Mr. Trump responded in kind: “I will say this about Hillary. She doesn’t quit, and she doesn’t give up. I respect that.” That brief exchange was emotionally powerful—the only uplifting moment of the night for many viewers. Had it been the opening exchange, might the debate have been more elevated, more constructive? This has been a frightening year for many Americans. Questions about the durability, legitimacy and wisdom of our democracy have been raised, both here and abroad. But the true test of our democracy—and our love of country—will come on the day after the election. Starting next Wednesday, each of us must decide what kind of person we want to be and what kind of relationship we want to have with our politically estranged cousins. Dr. Haidt is a social psychologist at New York University’s Stern School of Business, a fellow at the Martin Prosperity Institute and the author of “The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion.” Dr. Iyer is a social psychologist and data scientist at the website Ranker and the executive director of CivilPolitics.org. Edited November 9, 2016 by Daniel2 3
oremites Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 There seems to be a lot of anxiety about a Trump presidency in the comments here. I'd just like to say that I believe it's not going to be nearly as bad as you're afraid it's going to be. I think there's a good chance you'll be pleasantly surprised. First off, I think a lot of this anxiety is caused by the fear-mongering put out by his political and media opponents, which at one time or another included just about everybody. Let's forget about everything we're afraid he's going to. Let's look at what he actually does. Let's give him a chance to show what he's got. For example, I don't know if anyone watched his victory speech, but here's what I thought were some interesting points. About Hillary: He graciously congratulated her on a hard-fought campaign and thanked her for her years of public service. No threats of jail. No yelling, "You're fired!" He mentioned two things he wanted to take care of right away - 1. Rebuild our infrastructure. 2. Take care of our neglected veterans. Both are items that have been talked about for years and little seems to get done about. Both are items that I think all sides can agree are good things to tackle. Well, here's his chance to show us if he's really the leader he claims to be. Can he take on those issues and make a difference? We'll see, and if he does, it will benefit everybody. And then there's this idea that he's some kind of idiot man-child with no political savvy or skills who somehow stumbled into the presidency. Let's look at reality: He took on the Republicans and he won. He took on the Democrats and he won. He took on the media and he won. I don't think he should be dismissed so easily. I've rambled on too long, but I just want to say that this has definitely been the most entertaining and exciting presidential election I've ever seen and we'll probably never see anything like it again. It was a wild ride and we lived through history. Maybe I can now get back to ignoring politics as much as I possibly can. 4
Duncan Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Just now, oremites said: There seems to be a lot of anxiety about a Trump presidency in the comments here. I'd just like to say that I believe it's not going to be nearly as bad as you're afraid it's going to be. I think there's a good chance you'll be pleasantly surprised. First off, I think a lot of this anxiety is caused by the fear-mongering put out by his political and media opponents, which at one time or another included just about everybody. Let's forget about everything we're afraid he's going to. Let's look at what he actually does. Let's give him a chance to show what he's got. For example, I don't know if anyone watched his victory speech, but here's what I thought were some interesting points. About Hillary: He graciously congratulated her on a hard-fought campaign and thanked her for her years of public service. No threats of jail. No yelling, "You're fired!" He mentioned two things he wanted to take care of right away - 1. Rebuild our infrastructure. 2. Take care of our neglected veterans. Both are items that have been talked about for years and little seems to get done about. Both are items that I think all sides can agree are good things to tackle. Well, here's his chance to show us if he's really the leader he claims to be. Can he take on those issues and make a difference? We'll see, and if he does, it will benefit everybody. And then there's this idea that he's some kind of idiot man-child with no political savvy or skills who somehow stumbled into the presidency. Let's look at reality: He took on the Republicans and he won. He took on the Democrats and he won. He took on the media and he won. I don't think he should be dismissed so easily. I've rambled on too long, but I just want to say that this has definitely been the most entertaining and exciting presidential election I've ever seen and we'll probably never see anything like it again. It was a wild ride and we lived through history. Maybe I can now get back to ignoring politics as much as I possibly can. I think most people are afraid of what he's said himself, no spin, just he said it so we are waiting to see what happens 2
bsjkki Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Interesting graphics. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/elections/how-trump-pushed-the-election-map-to-the-right.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur county by county changes from 2012 1
Daniel2 Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) My favorite graphic on the election: (which I posted on my FB account the day before): Edited November 9, 2016 by Daniel2 3
bluebell Posted November 9, 2016 Author Posted November 9, 2016 45 minutes ago, Daniel2 said: It's been a long 24 hours... I found a lot of value in the following article: I remember that movie. Probably the most depressing, scariest movie i've ever watched. Good thoughts.
Marmonboy Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 54 minutes ago, Daniel2 said: It's been a long 24 hours... I found a lot of value in the following article: Absolutely brilliant.
Sleeper Cell Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 12 hours ago, The Nehor said: So yes, I think Donald might do that. I also worry the powers of the Presidency will be turned on the women who accused him of sexual assault, all media outlets that Trump imagines conspired against him, and possibly the Democratic Party and even Republicans that did not give their full support to Donald. I hope this scenario does not happen. So the right wing principles of limited government and strong checks and balances on the powers of the Presidency are starting to look a little better?
Jeanne Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 45 minutes ago, Daniel2 said: My favorite graphic on the election: (which I posted on my FB account the day before): Amen.
oremites Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 43 minutes ago, Duncan said: I think most people are afraid of what he's said himself, no spin, just he said it so we are waiting to see what happens Actually, I think most of that has been spun and taken out of context. One of the things that turned me into a Trump supporter is when I began looking into these "awful" things that Trump has said and I realized I'd been lied to. There are plenty of quotes floating around by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Boyd K. Packer and Bruce R. McConkie, for example, that "prove" they are terrible people who believed terrible things. Luckily I know the rest of the story so I can appreciate who they really were and what they really stood for. 2
Duncan Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Just now, oremites said: Actually, I think most of that has been spun and taken out of context. One of the things that turned me into a Trump supporter is when I began looking into these "awful" things that Trump has said and I realized I'd been lied to. There are plenty of quotes floating around by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Boyd K. Packer and Bruce R. McConkie, for example, that "prove" they are terrible people who believed terrible things. Luckily I know the rest of the story so I can appreciate who they really were and what they really stood for. Can you give us one example? Like he didn't actually say something or he said it but the backlash was too great and he backtracked and now we are the ones to blame or something? I know a guy in our stake, in the bishopric of another ward who believes that the Trump on TV isn't the "real" Trump, the real one wouldn't say or do those things but this phony guy on TV is some imposter parading around saying whatever but the real Trump doesn't do that....
Darren10 Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 13 hours ago, Calm said: And a lot of women feeling safer. Assuming jailing men for kissing women will actually reduce men kissing women. Your safety, for men and women, should be in your hands, not the state's though their intervention is necessary for certain circumstances. http://www.modernamericanwarrior.com/learn-self-defense
Duncan Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Just now, Darren10 said: Assuming jailing men for kissing women will actually reduce men kissing women. Your safety, for men and women, should be in your hands, not the state's though their intervention is necessary for certain circumstances. http://www.modernamericanwarrior.com/learn-self-defense and self control on men's part too right? 1
halconero Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, The Nehor said: On a lighter note the website 'Citizenship and Immigration Canada' where you can apply to move to or get citizenship in Canada has gone down due to the huge volume of people going to the site. I work in Canadian immigration right now. My contacts at the CIC, the phonelines, my portal on the website, and everything else are down. I've reschedule all appointments and am idly doing some paperwork, posting here, and juggling playing three countries on NationStates right now. Debating just packing it in early. Edited November 9, 2016 by halconero
The Nehor Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 2 hours ago, Marmonboy said: Donald isn't the president that will be issuing the pardon. I doubt Obama will either.
Calm Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Abortions rates have been falling significantly since 2008: http://www.nrlc.org/uploads/factsheets/FS01AbortionintheUS.pdf
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