Why is belief so important?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Specifically a belief in the church is what it sounded like.  Why would that be the most important thing.  I tend to think that our choices, our actions, are more important than our thoughts.  I know thoughts can lead to actions.  But he prioritized belief higher than our choices or actions.  Why would that be the case?  

Thoughts and beliefs are both forms of information. Information is introduced to our minds constantly, manifest in the form of thoughts that we sift through to form beliefs. But we only act on that information which we understand as truth or knowledge, which is where belief comes in. Belief is information that we understand as truth or knowledge. We choose to believe (or believe in) a thought, and that conviction leads to action which may become habit. I think that is why he prioritized belief as  most important. Of course the voluntary barriers to receiving information are overcome, which is where the desire to believe (an open mind) comes in handy.

If it sounded like belief in the Church was made the priority, I think choosing to believe the fundamental principles of our religion sets the stage for discerning and processing good information, choosing good beliefs from among those thoughts, and acting on those choices, all good practice for choosing a spouse.

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

No, I am saying that the temporal results are equal.  It doesn't matter if an atheist or a Christian gives their $20 to the poor or a blanket to the homeless.

I am saying that not all results are temporal in nature.

Wait, so are you saying that different results exist when an atheist gives $20 to the poor than when a religious person gives $20 to the poor?  Is there a non temporal result for the religious person that is superior than for the atheist?  In other words, would God somehow reward the religious person more for their gift than the atheist?  

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Wait, so are you saying that different results exist when an atheist gives $20 to the poor than when a religious person gives $20 to the poor?  Is there a non temporal result for the religious person that is superior than for the atheist?  In other words, would God somehow reward the religious person more for their gift than the atheist?  

No I'm saying the believer will receive blessings for their belief that the atheist cannot receive no matter how much charity they do.
Baptism has a blessing attached.
Praying has blessings attached.
The atonement has blessings attached.

Make the choice not to accept of those blessings (maybe because you doubt they exist) and you could easily be looking at a very different result than the faithful believer in the end.

[hope_for_things]

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

If it sounded like belief in the Church was made the priority, I think choosing to believe the fundamental principles of our religion sets the stage for discerning and processing good information, choosing good beliefs from among those thoughts, and acting on those choices, all good practice for choosing a spouse.

It was in the context of belief in the church that he was talking about.  I like the way you laid out belief and thoughts leading to knowledge and actions, this makes some sense to me.  But the resulting actions are what's important to me, not the underlying belief.  I guess I feel like the choices we make matter much more than what we are thinking.  I see so many times when we make a different choice than what we think we believe, sometimes this is for the good and sometimes this is for the bad. When the pressure is on, and we make choices, that's when our true character is manifest.  

So, regardless of what we think we believe, what choose to do with our actions is ultimately what matters.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I would say that actions are much more important than belief and I don't think we really have much control over our beliefs anyway.  That's not what Elder Jensen said though. 

Actions have to be voluntary in order to have any importance (meaning) to the actor, at least according to LDS teachings on agency. Such actions are possible only if one is open to information, sifts through the options, and decides (chooses) that which is understood to be true, or counts as knowledge. There are many points where we exercise some control in the formulation of belief. Impediments to our control can and do occur at any point; as you said we may not have much control, but all it takes is a particle of faith, the mere desire to believe, etc.

ETA:

12 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

It was in the context of belief in the church that he was talking about.  I like the way you laid out belief and thoughts leading to knowledge and actions, this makes some sense to me.  But the resulting actions are what's important to me, not the underlying belief.  I guess I feel like the choices we make matter much more than what we are thinking.  I see so many times when we make a different choice than what we think we believe, sometimes this is for the good and sometimes this is for the bad. When the pressure is on, and we make choices, that's when our true character is manifest.  

So, regardless of what we think we believe, what choose to do with our actions is ultimately what matters.  

Actions are the end result, and in that sense are "ultimate," but choosing to believe is the starting point, and the determinant of good and meaningful action, and why agency is the basis of existence (D&C 93:30). Our true character, I think, is heavily reliant on the culmination of habits based in a pattern of intentionally choosing to act on good information.

Edited October 12, 2016 by CV75

[hope_for_things]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No I'm saying the believer will receive blessings for their belief that the atheist cannot receive no matter how much charity they do.
Baptism has a blessing attached.
Praying has blessings attached.
The atonement has blessings attached.

Make the choice not to accept of those blessings (maybe because you doubt they exist) and you could easily be looking at a very different result than the faithful believer in the end.

Wouldn't this conflict with D&C 130 and the eternal laws and blessings concept?  If a blessing is attached to doing good things, i.e. giving to the poor, how would that blessing be any different for an atheist than for a believer?  Baptism, prayer, yes those things exist in the arena of religion, but I'm talking about other actions of service that aren't strictly in the religious domain.  

Conversely I'm thinking that an atheist could qualify for blessings that a religious person might be less likely to.  Religious people are told to avoid certain situations because they are evil, but people exist in those places.  Perhaps an atheist that doesn't have that same stigma will be more likely to help a person in need who is trapped in addiction or finds themselves in a place that the typical religious person would be avoiding.  Just a thought.  

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Wouldn't this conflict with D&C 130 and the eternal laws and blessings concept?  If a blessing is attached to doing good things, i.e. giving to the poor, how would that blessing be any different for an atheist than for a believer?  Baptism, prayer, yes those things exist in the arena of religion, but I'm talking about other actions of service that aren't strictly in the religious domain.  

I'm afraid I am not being clear.
An atheist and a believer would receive the same blessings for giving to the poor.
An atheist cannot receive the blessings that come from simply being a believer.

If you are limiting the topic to non-religious areas then of course there is no difference in the good work of an atheist or a believer.
But that is not what the OP quote is referring to. 
In talking about the essays and the challenges that the information age presents to members he said:

Quote

In the long run, choosing to believe is by far the most important choice that we will ever make in this life.

 He is referring to the importance of believing.  It is the religious blessings that make believing important.

[hope_for_things]

58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm afraid I am not being clear.
An atheist and a believer would receive the same blessings for giving to the poor.
An atheist cannot receive the blessings that come from simply being a believer.

If you are limiting the topic to non-religious areas then of course there is no difference in the good work of an atheist or a believer.
But that is not what the OP quote is referring to. 
In talking about the essays and the challenges that the information age presents to members he said:

 He is referring to the importance of believing.  It is the religious blessings that make believing important.

Thanks, I wasn't trying to limit the discussion, and I appreciate your clarification.  Perhaps thats what Marlin Jenson was saying as well.  He's seen so many blessings in his life that he connects directly to membership in the church, so he feels like this is the most important decision to make because from his perspective a person not affiliated with the church will miss out on all those blessings.  This is an interesting point, I'll have to think on that further.  

My initial reaction would be that this is merely an in-group perspective, but I also know that he's met with many other people from other faiths.  I find it perplexing that Mormons can be so confident in their superior position sometimes and this bothers me somewhat. 

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

  I find it perplexing that Mormons can be so confident in their superior position sometimes and this bothers me somewhat.

A lot of more progressive members agree with you.
As you might imagine I am not one of them. 

If Mormons are confident in the truthfulness of the restored gospel as a result of their testimonies, that isn't arrogance, just observation.
Of course those that don't accept the restored gospel see it differently.
The spirit of Rameumpton does occur in the Church.  But not accepting all other religions as being of equal value is not the same as that spirit.

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

A lot of more progressive members agree with you.
As you might imagine I am not one of them. 

If Mormons are confident in the truthfulness of the restored gospel as a result of their testimonies, that isn't arrogance, just observation.
Of course those that don't accept the restored gospel see it differently.
The spirit of Rameumpton does occur in the Church.  But not accepting all other religions as being of equal value is not the same as that spirit.

Thanks you're helping me understand where he's likely coming from much better.  I'm thinking that his emphasis on belief being #1 most important choice likely reflects his devotion and commitment to his Mormon ideals.  Which is an admirable attribute.  I so much appreciate how Mormonism gets people to be 100% committed to doing what they believe is right.  It shows a great level of personal fortitude and strength of conviction.

On the downside it can be an arrogant, naive and judgmental orientation that does damage to those who don't fit well into the program.  Its both a strength and a weakness of Mormonism from my POV.  

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I so much appreciate how Mormonism gets people to be 100% committed to doing what they believe is right.  It shows a great level of personal fortitude and strength of conviction.
On the downside it can be an arrogant, naive and judgmental orientation that does damage to those who don't fit well into the program.  Its both a strength and a weakness of Mormonism from my POV. 

I can agree with that.  Nobody is perfect.
But if you are 100% convinced of the truth of your theology, you can allow others to believe as they see fit (AoF) but you can never really see their alternative theology as being equally valuable and true.
That's hardly unique to religion either.  Just look at politics.

[rodheadlee]

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I recently attended the Spirit of Dialogue conference at UVU and they are celebrating their 50th anniversary. https://www.dialoguejournal.com/50th-anniversary/spirit-of-dialogue-conference/

It was a great meeting with wonderful guests.  One of the highlights for me was the last session, a discussion between Marlin Jensen (former church historian and emeritus status GA) and Gregory Prince.  The audio is posted at the above link.  He said something that I've been pondering about ever since the meeting.  In talking about the essays and the challenges that the information age presents to members he said:

The part in bold is what I've been struggling to understand.  He mentioned meeting with many people over the years who're struggling with their membership.  Why is belief so important to him, and why is it a choice?  Why is it more important than who you choose as your spouse?  Why is belief the most important choice we will ever make in this life?  I don't get it.

I have some thoughts, but I wanted to ask to the group.  Thanks

The most important belief is in Jesus Christ. Believe in Christ and you will be saved. If you believe in Christ and listen to the Holy Spirit you will eventually believe in His Church. These are from John. 

 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never ^adie. Believest thou this?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the ^aFather, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye ^abelieved not: the ^bworks that I do in my Father’s ^cname, they bear witness of me.

 

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall ^adie in your sins: for if ye ^bbelieve not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

1 Let not your heart be ^atroubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

 

Mark: 23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are ^apossible to him that ^bbelieveth.

 

Luke:  12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

  

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Specifically a belief in the church is what it sounded like.  Why would that be the most important thing.  I tend to think that our choices, our actions, are more important than our thoughts.  I know thoughts can lead to actions.  But he prioritized belief higher than our choices or actions.  Why would that be the case?  

He may have meant belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to which the church (any church) is merely ancillary.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Ok, that makes more sense to me, and maybe that's the connection Marlin is getting at.  Believe the church is led by God, trust the leaders, and that is the most important decision in life.  Allegiance to the institution because the institution is the only path to salvation, is that the basic math of your belief?  

Once I stopped thinking that the church had exclusive authority, then I was open to re-evaluate the gospel from a different vantage point.  I interpret the central message of the gospel as one of love and service towards others, and actions towards this end matter to me now.    

But I lost my belief in the church's exclusive authority, and I don't think I can get that back.  

The church has no authority.  That is the province of the priesthood of God.  The church is merely a vehicle used by the priesthood in furtherance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and such an organizaton is malleable and can be called by whatever name is convenient (church, synagogue, congregation, assembly, etc.).  People who have faith in the church have their priorities backwards.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Why would God care either.  Wouldn't God be more interested in our actions than our beliefs.  

James the Brother of Jesus said that faith without works is dead as a body without a soul.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm still struggling with why though.  What if I'm an atheist, but yet I choose to spend my time serving others, I have a family and live without excess, I treat people with respect and I do all of this because I value how these choices I make influence my friends, family and community.  Atheists have no belief in an afterlife, so all those moral and ethic decisions are not out of a desire qualify for a reward or to follow a set divine commandments.  

You could also say that the atheist is following a set of beliefs, these beliefs are that there is value in civilized society, that treating others the right way is an ethic that they ascribe to.  Yet these beliefs are not the kind of beliefs that Marlin Jensen seems to think is the most important choice any person can make in this life.  WHY????

Having the virtue of altruism in one's life does not require a religious tenet.  Indeed, animals and insects also have that quality -- and many other good qualities, such as courage and self-sacrifice.  Yet the animals and insects are unlikely to have the higher human quality of faith or belief, which has a profound influence on everything else we do.  We need to understand the human condition in a holistic way, rather than merely one characteristic at a time.  In any case, it is not a religious tenet that we should do good out of the intent to obtain a reward -- Jesus himself was critical of such a view.

[hope_for_things]

15 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

The most important belief is in Jesus Christ. Believe in Christ and you will be saved. If you believe in Christ and listen to the Holy Spirit you will eventually believe in His Church. 

I can provide scriptures that emphasize our actions as being more important than belief, like the sheep and goats parable mentioned earlier.  Thanks, but I'm looking for reasoning, not for a simple, belief is important because Jesus said so in these verses.  Why is it important, and not only that, why is it the most important choice we can make in this life.  Thats a pretty high bar that was set.  

[hope_for_things]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Having the virtue of altruism in one's life does not require a religious tenet.  Indeed, animals and insects also have that quality -- and many other good qualities, such as courage and self-sacrifice.

Yes, I agree, good point.  

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yet the animals and insects are unlikely to have the higher human quality of faith or belief, which has a profound influence on everything else we do.  We need to understand the human condition in a holistic way, rather than merely one characteristic at a time.

This is a good point as well, I think we do need to look at things holistically.  Would you agree that belief is the most important choice we can make in this life, or do you have any ideas as to why Marlin Jensen would have this perspective?  

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In any case, it is not a religious tenet that we should do good out of the intent to obtain a reward -- Jesus himself was critical of such a view.

The prosperity gospel is pretty popular these days, and this kind of emphasis is common in our Mormon tradition as well.  I think it is a very popular religious tenant.  You can argue that its not a true principle and that we should be critical of it, and I would agree.  

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The church has no authority.  That is the province of the priesthood of God.  The church is merely a vehicle used by the priesthood in furtherance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and such an organizaton is malleable and can be called by whatever name is convenient (church, synagogue, congregation, assembly, etc.).  People who have faith in the church have their priorities backwards.

Love this!
So true...I may have to use this as a quote some time.

[thesometimesaint]

22 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I would say that actions are much more important than belief and I don't think we really have much control over our beliefs anyway.  That's not what Elder Jensen said though. 

We have absolute control over our beliefs. I choose to believe. I try to make my actions are consistent with that belief.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Yes, I agree, good point.  

This is a good point as well, I think we do need to look at things holistically.  Would you agree that belief is the most important choice we can make in this life, or do you have any ideas as to why Marlin Jensen would have this perspective?  

The prosperity gospel is pretty popular these days, and this kind of emphasis is common in our Mormon tradition as well.  I think it is a very popular religious tenant.  You can argue that its not a true principle and that we should be critical of it, and I would agree.  

 

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Love this!
So true...I may have to use this as a quote some time.

Nice to know that we are on the same page, JLHPROF.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Yes, I agree, good point.  

This is a good point as well, I think we do need to look at things holistically.  Would you agree that belief is the most important choice we can make in this life, or do you have any ideas as to why Marlin Jensen would have this perspective?  

The prosperity gospel is pretty popular these days, and this kind of emphasis is common in our Mormon tradition as well.  I think it is a very popular religious tenant.  You can argue that its not a true principle and that we should be critical of it, and I would agree.  

We don't believe in the Gospel of Prosperity. We do believe everyone will be rewarded according to their works.

[Brant Gardner]

On 10/12/2016 at 9:03 AM, hope_for_things said:

Why is belief the most important choice we will ever make in this life?  I don't get it.

Welcome to the hard questions. I think this particular issue is complicated because of English. In Greek, there is both a noun and verb for "faith." There can be faith, and you can faith. We can't do that in English. Faith is so firmly a noun that we "have it" but--we have to use believe when the original was the verb faith. Then it gets complicated when we back our verb into the noun, and we have a contrast between faith and belief that is an artifact of our language, not the original New Testament intent.

So why does that make a difference? The best explanation is in Hebrew 11:1, but I'll have to "retranslate it" to help understanding: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."(Hebrews 11:1) Remembering that an important aspect of faith is its ability to encode action, think of it this way. Both substance and evidence are things upon which we base our actions. I will sit in a chair with substance. I won't sit in a non-substantial chair. I will do things on the basis of evidence. I can be convinced that something is right even when it is not tangible (math, for example). I will use that evidence to govern my actions.

What we are told in Hebrews is that faith (when we faith) allows us to act when there is no substance or typically understood evidence.

So, why is "belief" so important? If you remove it from the religious realm, it is still a critical component of our actions. Sometimes we act on substance, sometimes on evidence--or knowledge--but sometimes we have to step away from the comfortable and do something new. Faith is the basis of any action where we act before we have the firm foundation of either tangible or constructed evidence. When a child learns to ride a bicycle with training wheels, the know that they can ride with the training wheels. When they are removed they are in a new territory where they cannot act on what they know. They must act on the faith they have in a parent/friend--or perhaps themselves. But it cannot be something they know--because it is new.

Why is belief so important? As we conceive it in English, it really isn't. However, as a stand-in for faith (particular the active, doing, verb-faith) it is the basis of all progress. Without it, we learn nothing new, act only the way we have before. We are stable, but stagnant. We don't progress.

Now, add back in your religious context and you can see it as an eternal principle apart from the temporal one that we use without calling it faith/belief.

[rodheadlee]

13 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I can provide scriptures that emphasize our actions as being more important than belief, like the sheep and goats parable mentioned earlier.  Thanks, but I'm looking for reasoning, not for a simple, belief is important because Jesus said so in these verses.  Why is it important, and not only that, why is it the most important choice we can make in this life.  Thats a pretty high bar that was set.  

Your beliefs set up your motives for your actions. It's not that difficult.

Edited October 14, 2016 by rodheadlee

[hope_for_things]

22 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

We don't believe in the Gospel of Prosperity. We do believe everyone will be rewarded according to their works.

Not sure I believe that, or that Mormonism requires that interpretation.  Lots of the works on grace by Adam Miller lately have been influential to me on more expansive constructs around this subject.