Why is belief so important?

[hope_for_things]

I recently attended the Spirit of Dialogue conference at UVU and they are celebrating their 50th anniversary. https://www.dialoguejournal.com/50th-anniversary/spirit-of-dialogue-conference/

It was a great meeting with wonderful guests.  One of the highlights for me was the last session, a discussion between Marlin Jensen (former church historian and emeritus status GA) and Gregory Prince.  The audio is posted at the above link.  He said something that I've been pondering about ever since the meeting.  In talking about the essays and the challenges that the information age presents to members he said:

Quote

In the long run, choosing to believe is by far the most important choice that we will ever make in this life.  Right next to it I think is choosing the person that we will marry. 

The part in bold is what I've been struggling to understand.  He mentioned meeting with many people over the years who're struggling with their membership.  Why is belief so important to him, and why is it a choice?  Why is it more important than who you choose as your spouse?  Why is belief the most important choice we will ever make in this life?  I don't get it.

I have some thoughts, but I wanted to ask to the group.  Thanks

[thesometimesaint]

Because beliefs inform every aspect of our lives. IE; I believe city "X " is the best place to raise my children.

[hope_for_things]

52 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Because beliefs inform every aspect of our lives. IE; I believe city "X " is the best place to raise my children.

Specifically a belief in the church is what it sounded like.  Why would that be the most important thing.  I tend to think that our choices, our actions, are more important than our thoughts.  I know thoughts can lead to actions.  But he prioritized belief higher than our choices or actions.  Why would that be the case?  

[Gray]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I recently attended the Spirit of Dialogue conference at UVU and they are celebrating their 50th anniversary. https://www.dialoguejournal.com/50th-anniversary/spirit-of-dialogue-conference/

It was a great meeting with wonderful guests.  One of the highlights for me was the last session, a discussion between Marlin Jensen (former church historian and emeritus status GA) and Gregory Prince.  The audio is posted at the above link.  He said something that I've been pondering about ever since the meeting.  In talking about the essays and the challenges that the information age presents to members he said:

The part in bold is what I've been struggling to understand.  He mentioned meeting with many people over the years who're struggling with their membership.  Why is belief so important to him, and why is it a choice?  Why is it more important than who you choose as your spouse?  Why is belief the most important choice we will ever make in this life?  I don't get it.

I have some thoughts, but I wanted to ask to the group.  Thanks

I don't think I'd agree with how they're phrasing it. I do believe spirituality is an important part of the human experience (important to help us become whole human beings, not important in in the sense that we need to avoid some kind of divine punishment). But healthy spirituality can manifest itself in so many different forms. Maybe it would help to hear a clarification from them. 

[thesometimesaint]

Because it informs everything we do. IE; Do we go to our Church meetings on Sunday, or do we go to the church of the NFL? I'm not trying to be flip here. Seriously; being a Saint in thought and deed is what we're are aspiring to. No one is responsible for random thoughts that sometimes enter our minds. We are responsible for dwelling on those thoughts though.

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, Gray said:

I don't think I'd agree with how they're phrasing it. I do believe spirituality is an important part of the human experience (important to help us become whole human beings, not important in in the sense that we need to avoid some kind of divine punishment). But healthy spirituality can manifest itself in so many different forms. Maybe it would help to hear a clarification from them. 

This was part of a lengthy discussion about the church essays, the pressures that puts on certain people in the internet age with access to information that complicates and contradicts the dominant narratives of the past.  Marlin Jensen talked about people leaving the church and how sad he is when that happens, but he also described them using some of the negative stereotypes about people losing their morals and experiencing a dramatic change of livelihood in the process.  I'm sure he wouldn't universally apply that to everyone.  

I think with respect to belief it sounded like he truly does feel that aligning ourselves with Mormonism is the most important thing we can do in this life.  

Edited October 12, 2016 by hope_for_things

[hope_for_things]

16 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Because it informs everything we do. IE; Do we go to our Church meetings on Sunday, or do we go to the church of the NFL? I'm not trying to be flip here. Seriously; being a Saint in thought and deed is what we're are aspiring to. No one is responsible for random thoughts that sometimes enter our minds. We are responsible for dwelling on those thoughts though.

It sounds like you've correlated belief in the 21st century with following orthodox behavioral markers for a 21st century Mormon, i.e. going to church on Sunday, etc.  These outward behavioral markers are how we should measure a person's level of belief?  

Is this the core of the gospel, going to church on Sunday instead of watching the NFL?  Sounds like a shallow gospel if that is the measurement.  How does belief = following behavior markers like Sunday church attendance, and why is that so important?  

[Jeanne]

Belief to me is important..a choice that I make and sometimes change keeping fundamentals that are important to me.it is how I make decisions short and long term in many areas of my life.  I also think that belief is personal...it doesn't have to be a belief that millions of others say or think is right although we may agree on many things.  But it is personal and a spiritual space that fills the other realms in our lives.  I can watch an NFL game on Sunday and still do the good that I require of myself.  To me, a chapel is unnecessary. My chapel is the stars..the fall leaves..a walk by the river..and prayer.

[thesometimesaint]

I joined in 1971 at the age of 20. I've always subscribed to the idea that show me what you do, and I'll know what you believe. I can't show you my beliefs. I can only show you my actions. Knowing that Jesus is the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, is the core of the Gospel. Doing as my, inspired by God, leaders say is the demonstration of that belief.

Edited October 12, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[hope_for_things]

14 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Belief to me is important..a choice that I make and sometimes change keeping fundamentals that are important to me.it is how I make decisions short and long term in many areas of my life.  I also think that belief is personal...it doesn't have to be a belief that millions of others say or think is right although we may agree on many things.  But it is personal and a spiritual space that fills the other realms in our lives.  I can watch an NFL game on Sunday and still do the good that I require of myself.  To me, a chapel is unnecessary. My chapel is the stars..the fall leaves..a walk by the river..and prayer.

I can get on board with belief being a personal expression, that makes sense.  I guess I think that belief is not something I can choose or control so much as its my current orientation towards the world around me.  I don't feel like it is a choice or that its something that is moral or ethical either.  It just is.

For example, I believe that gravity works because I have experience seeing it work in my life.  I don't have any cause to doubt that it exists.  For religious things, I may believe that God exists, but I may not believe that God will answer each and every time that I pray.  Those beliefs are formed from experience and represent my observations religiously, but they aren't a matter of choice for me.  I can't just all the sudden say, "I believe God answers all my prayers", when I haven't experienced that in my life or seen that in my observations of the lives of others.  Does that make sense?  I couldn't all the sudden choose to not believe that gravity exists either, no matter how hard I try.  

[JLHPROF]

Belief, whether based on the evidence of the unseen (faith) or the evidence of the seen (observation), determines every single choice we make.

Sounds kind of important.
 

[hope_for_things]

12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I joined in 1971 at the age of 20. I've always subscribed to the idea that show me what you do, and I'll know what you believe. I can't show you my beliefs. I can only show you my actions. Knowing that Jesus is the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, is the core of the Gospel. Doing as my, inspired by God, leaders say is the demonstration of that belief.

Ok, that makes more sense to me, and maybe that's the connection Marlin is getting at.  Believe the church is led by God, trust the leaders, and that is the most important decision in life.  Allegiance to the institution because the institution is the only path to salvation, is that the basic math of your belief?  

Once I stopped thinking that the church had exclusive authority, then I was open to re-evaluate the gospel from a different vantage point.  I interpret the central message of the gospel as one of love and service towards others, and actions towards this end matter to me now.    

But I lost my belief in the church's exclusive authority, and I don't think I can get that back.  

[thesometimesaint]

6 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I can get on board with belief being a personal expression, that makes sense.  I guess I think that belief is not something I can choose or control so much as its my current orientation towards the world around me.  I don't feel like it is a choice or that its something that is moral or ethical either.  It just is.

For example, I believe that gravity works because I have experience seeing it work in my life.  I don't have any cause to doubt that it exists.  For religious things, I may believe that God exists, but I may not believe that God will answer each and every time that I pray.  Those beliefs are formed from experience and represent my observations religiously, but they aren't a matter of choice for me.  I can't just all the sudden say, "I believe God answers all my prayers", when I haven't experienced that in my life or seen that in my observations of the lives of others.  Does that make sense?  I couldn't all the sudden choose to not believe that gravity exists either, no matter how hard I try.  

Gravity doesn't care if you believe in it or not. God is a different question.

[hope_for_things]

14 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Gravity doesn't care if you believe in it or not. God is a different question.

Why would God care either.  Wouldn't God be more interested in our actions than our beliefs.  

[hope_for_things]

22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Belief, whether based on the evidence of the unseen (faith) or the evidence of the seen (observation), determines every single choice we make.

Sounds kind of important.
 

I'm still struggling with why though.  What if I'm an atheist, but yet I choose to spend my time serving others, I have a family and live without excess, I treat people with respect and I do all of this because I value how these choices I make influence my friends, family and community.  Atheists have no belief in an afterlife, so all those moral and ethic decisions are not out of a desire qualify for a reward or to follow a set divine commandments.  

You could also say that the atheist is following a set of beliefs, these beliefs are that there is value in civilized society, that treating others the right way is an ethic that they ascribe to.  Yet these beliefs are not the kind of beliefs that Marlin Jensen seems to think is the most important choice any person can make in this life.  WHY????

[thesometimesaint]

10 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Why would God care either.  Wouldn't God be more interested in our actions than our beliefs.  

They are of equal importance.

[thesometimesaint]

4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm still struggling with why though.  What if I'm an atheist, but yet I choose to spend my time serving others, I have a family and live without excess, I treat people with respect and I do all of this because I value how these choices I make influence my friends, family and community.  Atheists have no belief in an afterlife, so all those moral and ethic decisions are not out of a desire qualify for a reward or to follow a set divine commandments.  

You could also say that the atheist is following a set of beliefs, these beliefs are that there is value in civilized society, that treating others the right way is an ethic that they ascribe to.  Yet these beliefs are not the kind of beliefs that Marlin Jensen seems to think is the most important choice any person can make in this life.  WHY????

Parable of the sheep and the goats.

[hope_for_things]

3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

They are of equal importance.

I would say that actions are much more important than belief and I don't think we really have much control over our beliefs anyway.  That's not what Elder Jensen said though. 

[hope_for_things]

6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Parable of the sheep and the goats.

I believe this is core to the gospel, but it speaks nothing of belief.  How we treat people matters, and I think even the motivations we have matter as well.  Perhaps that is what belief is about, but I would argue that doing these things out of love instead of motivated by fear, is the much better reason to do good things.  

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm still struggling with why though.  What if I'm an atheist, but yet I choose to spend my time serving others, I have a family and live without excess, I treat people with respect and I do all of this because I value how these choices I make influence my friends, family and community.  Atheists have no belief in an afterlife, so all those moral and ethic decisions are not out of a desire qualify for a reward or to follow a set divine commandments.

You could also say that the atheist is following a set of beliefs, these beliefs are that there is value in civilized society, that treating others the right way is an ethic that they ascribe to.  Yet these beliefs are not the kind of beliefs that Marlin Jensen seems to think is the most important choice any person can make in this life.  WHY????

The results.
The temporal results of your compassionate atheist's actions may not be any different than the temporal results of a charitable believer would be.

As a believer I have seen results in my life that I don't think for one second could have been achieved without my belief.
And using the old Pascal's wager argument (without getting into a big philosophical debate about the wager) the results of believing if/when the gospel is revealed as inarguably true will likewise be different.

 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I recently attended the Spirit of Dialogue conference at UVU and they are celebrating their 50th anniversary. https://www.dialoguejournal.com/50th-anniversary/spirit-of-dialogue-conference/

It was a great meeting with wonderful guests.  One of the highlights for me was the last session, a discussion between Marlin Jensen (former church historian and emeritus status GA) and Gregory Prince.  The audio is posted at the above link.  He said something that I've been pondering about ever since the meeting.  In talking about the essays and the challenges that the information age presents to members he said:

The part in bold is what I've been struggling to understand.  He mentioned meeting with many people over the years who're struggling with their membership.  Why is belief so important to him, and why is it a choice?  Why is it more important than who you choose as your spouse?  Why is belief the most important choice we will ever make in this life?  I don't get it.

I have some thoughts, but I wanted to ask to the group.  Thanks

Some of these I've been wondering also. And what if we believe something false? Just take our chances? How do we know if the belief is correct?

[hope_for_things]

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The results.
The temporal results of your compassionate atheist's actions may not be any different than the temporal results of a charitable believer would be.

As a believer I have seen results in my life that I don't think for one second could have been achieved without my belief.
And using the old Pascal's wager argument (without getting into a big philosophical debate about the wager) the results of believing if/when the gospel is revealed as inarguably true will likewise be different.
 

Ok, so if you're saying that when the results are equal, then thats all that matters.  You are also saying that for you personally, you feel like your belief has helped you to achieve better results, but I could say that an atheist might think the same thing that their beliefs help them to achieve better results. 

Oh, and i think Pascal's wager made sense during his lifetime, but we have come a long ways since he lived as far as knowledge and understanding about the mechanisms of the universe, and belief in God is not longer a default belief in our culture.  

[thesometimesaint]

Go with whatever God tells you to do. If our atheistic friends are correct. Thus it is just this life then the Abyss none of us will know any differently anyway.

[hope_for_things]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Some of these I've been wondering also. And what if we believe something false? Just take our chances? How do we know if the belief is correct?

Thanks Tacenda.  You bring up a good point.  I think its safe to assume that many of our beliefs are false, we should often be skeptical of what we think we know, because of the limitations of our understanding and the way our brains use information in illogical ways.  

This is what I call humility, this position of accepting that we are likely wrong about many of our beliefs, and I think the gospel actually encourages this kind of humility.  Unfortunately I don't see the Mormons define humility the same way, in our Mormon culture, humility is all about aligning your thinking with church authorities.  How great would it be if the authorities modeled actual humility.  

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Ok, so if you're saying that when the results are equal, then thats all that matters. 

No, I am saying that the temporal results are equal.  It doesn't matter if an atheist or a Christian gives their $20 to the poor or a blanket to the homeless.

I am saying that not all results are temporal in nature.

Quote

Oh, and i think Pascal's wager made sense during his lifetime, but we have come a long ways since he lived as far as knowledge and understanding about the mechanisms of the universe, and belief in God is not longer a default belief in our culture. 

Agreed, but I don't see that as progress.