Glenn101 Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 15 minutes ago, california boy said: So I can still be with my loved one throughout eternity, just like the same promise given to everyone else? The one that you are sealed to for all time and eternity.
Popular Post Storm Rider Posted July 17, 2016 Popular Post Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) On 7/17/2016 at 7:08 AM, california boy said: So I can still be with my loved one throughout eternity, just like the same promise given to everyone else? The terminology you are using "can still be with my loved one" all depends upon your definition of "be with". Remember that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not about being saved by oneself, but it is being saved with your family. We are not saved without them or them without us - we are obligated to work on behalf of their spiritual welfare and having all generations sealed together. Within this context, if each individual is willing to follow after Christ, we will all be together with all our loved ones. In this context we will all be together or, at least all those who want it. There is so much we do not know or completely understand. However, our theology is centered on being a disciple of Jesus Christ by sacrificing our own wants, passions, and desires in exchange for accepting his yoke. To follow after Christ is to seek after holiness and all righteousness. It is not about trying to dance as close to the line (that line that defines righteousness from sin), but rather the exact opposite. We want to plunge wholeheartedly into following the Savior. There is no other priority and our relationship with him must take precedence over all others. Edited July 18, 2016 by Storm Rider 5
mfbukowski Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, california boy said: So if I have no sexual relations and keep all the commandments just like everyone else, can I spend eternity with him in the celestial kingdom? You can both be in the celestial kingdom together, of course, but not sealed according to church doctrine, just as two missionaries or other friends could be together, and not sealed, or any two families in a ward, say for example Edited July 17, 2016 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: The terminology you are using "can still be with my loved one" all depends upon your definition of "be with". Remember that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not about being saved by oneself, but it is being saved with your family. We are not saved with them or them without us - we are obligated to work on behalf of their spiritual welfare and having all generations sealed together. Within this context, if each individual is willing to follow after Christ, we will all be together with all our loved ones. There is so much we do not know or completely understand. However, our theology is centered on being a disciple of Jesus Christ by sacrificing our own wants, passions, and desires in exchange for accepting his yoke. To follow after Christ is to seek after holiness and all righteousness. It is not about trying to dance as close to the line (that line that defines righteousness from sin), but rather the exact opposite. We want to plunge wholeheartedly into following the Savior. There is no other priority and our relationship with him must take precedence over all others. Exactly!
california boy Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 3 hours ago, Glenn101 said: The one that you are sealed to for all time and eternity. Well since I am not allowed to be sealed to my partner in this life, than I assume you are voting on the Gays Not Allowed in The Celestial Kingdom group. Thanks for your input.
california boy Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Storm Rider said: The terminology you are using "can still be with my loved one" all depends upon your definition of "be with". Remember that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not about being saved by oneself, but it is being saved with your family. We are not saved with them or them without us - we are obligated to work on behalf of their spiritual welfare and having all generations sealed together. Within this context, if each individual is willing to follow after Christ, we will all be together with all our loved ones. There is so much we do not know or completely understand. However, our theology is centered on being a disciple of Jesus Christ by sacrificing our own wants, passions, and desires in exchange for accepting his yoke. To follow after Christ is to seek after holiness and all righteousness. It is not about trying to dance as close to the line (that line that defines righteousness from sin), but rather the exact opposite. We want to plunge wholeheartedly into following the Savior. There is no other priority and our relationship with him must take precedence over all others. I am not sure what you are saying here, so I will ask for greater clarification. If a gay person commits to NEVER having sexual relations with the person he loves and shares his life with and keeps all of the commandments, I would say that is doing all he can to follow Christ. Isn't by reframing from any sexual relations with his partner he loves sacrificing all his wants, passions and desires in exchange for accepting his yoke?? That is a whole lot more of sacrificing wants, passions and desires that is required for anyone else. With all of those sacrifices made above and beyond what anyone else is asked to make, can he and his partner enter into the celestial kingdom? Just trying to make sense of what you are writing in the context of the question I asked.
california boy Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: You can both be in the celestial kingdom together, of course, but not sealed according to church doctrine, just as two missionaries or other friends could be together, and not sealed, or any two families in a ward, say for example Well as long as I can be with him throughout eternity in the Celestial Kingdom, that is all that matters. I am not worried about being sealed on this earth life to him, I will not worry about being sealed to him in the next. 1
UtahTexan Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 11 hours ago, JulieM said: Nope, I didn't miss your point. It appears that you missed mine, though. We know the law of chastity was altered. If it was changed by God, He may change it again. We know it's already happened once and could possibly happen again, then we both made the same point.....
Storm Rider Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) On 7/17/2016 at 11:22 AM, california boy said: I am not sure what you are saying here, so I will ask for greater clarification. If a gay person commits to NEVER having sexual relations with the person he loves and shares his life with and keeps all of the commandments, I would say that is doing all he can to follow Christ. Isn't by reframing from any sexual relations with his partner he loves sacrificing all his wants, passions and desires in exchange for accepting his yoke?? That is a whole lot more of sacrificing wants, passions and desires that is required for anyone else. With all of those sacrifices made above and beyond what anyone else is asked to make, can he and his partner enter into the celestial kingdom? Just trying to make sense of what you are writing in the context of the question I asked. Is it more than the sacrifice demanded of others? I think you are using the carnal man's standard of sacrifice. God has asked all of his children to obey his commandments. Each child must obey the same commandments; there is not a list of commandments for one person that does not apply to everyone else. An individual with SSA may live their entire life without every having a marital relationship in the same way that many other individuals that do not have SSA live without a marriage relationship. Which one endures a greater sacrifice? Are they not both an equal sacrifice? Two individuals of the same gender cannot create a marital relationship that is acceptable within the commandments and teachings of God. Simply having SSA does not relieve an individual from obedience to the teachings of God or of his rightfully called apostles and prophets. All must be willing to follow after the Savior. If any person is willing to follow the Savior and keep his commandments they will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. They will join with all other individuals who have done the same thing and through Christ all will be made joint-heirs regardless of their sexual preference experienced in their mortal existence. Edited July 19, 2016 by Storm Rider 2
JLHPROF Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, california boy said: That is a whole lot more of sacrificing wants, passions and desires that is required for anyone else. With all of those sacrifices made above and beyond what anyone else is asked to make, can he and his partner enter into the celestial kingdom? D&C 130:20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— 21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. Lectures on Faith 6:7 Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life. 1
california boy Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: Is it more than the sacrifice demanded of others? I think you are using the carnal man's standard of sacrifice. God has asked all of his children to obey his commandments. Each child must obey the same commandments; there are not a list of commandments for one person that do not apply to others. An individual with SSA may live their entire life without every having a marital relationship just like many individuals that do not have SSA. Which one endures a greater sacrifice? Two individuals of the same gender cannot create a marital relationship that is acceptable within the commandments and teachings of God. Simply having SSA does not relieve the individual from obedience to the teachings of God or his rightfully called apostles and prophets. All must be willing to follow after the Savior. If any person will willing to follow the Savior and keep his commandments they will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. They will join with all other individuals who have done the same thing and through Christ all will be joint-heirs. Of course there is a lot more asked of a gay member. Gay couples can't marry the one they love, everyone else can. They can't have any sexual relations with the one they love. Everyone else can because they can marry the person they love. Both things go hand in hand. I get that the church demands anyone who is gay to not have sexual relations with the person they love. And I accept that. But does the fact that a gay couple who stay celibate also not allow them to enter the Celestial Kingdom together? Is there no plan of happiness for a gay couple? Or are they not allowed to be with the one they love for eternity. That is what I am not quite clear on in your answers. Yet is is really the only answer that is important to someone who is gay.
Popular Post Calm Posted July 17, 2016 Popular Post Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) Have you ever thought, calb, that perhaps you are looking at it the wrong way from the very beginning? (as are all of us in some way). That as long as we look at our sacrifice as something that needs to be measured and compared to others and as something we are giving up, we will never be able to begin to see what God is offering us? What if the rich, young man had looked on Jesus' instruction to give away all his riches as an opportunity to be desired and not as a sacrifice? What joy and peace could he have then embraced? Edited July 17, 2016 by Calm 5
Stargazer Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 On 7/15/2016 at 11:07 AM, california boy said: I think this is exactly why so many of these threads go south. People assume and put words in other peoples mouths without any basis for doing so. No I do not intend to talk about marriage and sex. As I stated from the outset of this thread, those participating in this discussion has to accept that the church teaches that any sex including in a legal and lawful marriage for gay couples breaks the law of chastity. So no, we are not going to talk about that. If you would like to discuss that issue, you will have to start your own thread. Ok with you?? I am however interested in what those on this board think about dating, hugging and kissing. Is it breaking the Law of Chastity to date, hug or kiss someone you are not married to no matter what your orientation is.? This thread goes on for 7 pages at this point, and I'm responding at page 3, with no time to slog through to the end (I'm trying to do a very important and complicated task here at home). But I am impressed at how rational, even-tempered, even-handed the discussion is going! Amazing. I was going to post a substantive answer to this thread, in particular to the question bolded above, but the best I could do was: It depends. Yes and no. I realize that that is useless, but the darned board software won't let you just cancel out. If I come back later this edit screen will still be waiting for me. Sorry, california boy, to give this such short shrift. This is single best thread on the topic that has ever appeared on this board, I think.
Calm Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 1 Sam 15:22 Since one of the commandments was to offer up these sacrifices, it seems to me this speaks to attitude more than anything else. As we are laying our rams on God's altar, is it us giving up our treasures as sacrifices or is it us in love and trust beseeching the Lord to take whatever he desires from us so that we can can be one with him? Psalm 40 Psalm 40a For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. 1I waited patiently for the Lord; he turned to me and heard my cry. 2He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand. 3He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear the Lord and put their trust in him. 4Blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.b 5Many, Lord my God, are the wonders you have done, the things you planned for us. None can compare with you; were I to speak and tell of your deeds, they would be too many to declare. 6Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but my ears you have openedc — burnt offerings and sin offeringsd you did not require. 7Then I said, “Here I am, I have come— it is written about me in the scroll.e 8I desire to do your will, my God; your law is within my heart.” 9I proclaim your saving acts in the great assembly; I do not seal my lips, Lord, as you know. 10I do not hide your righteousness in my heart; I speak of your faithfulness and your saving help. I do not conceal your love and your faithfulness from the great assembly. 11Do not withhold your mercy from me, Lord; may your love and faithfulness always protect me. 12For troubles without number surround me; my sins have overtaken me, and I cannot see. They are more than the hairs of my head, and my heart fails within me. 13Be pleased to save me, Lord; come quickly, Lord, to help me. 14May all who want to take my life be put to shame and confusion; may all who desire my ruin be turned back in disgrace. 15May those who say to me, “Aha! Aha!” be appalled at their own shame. 16But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you; may those who long for your saving help always say, “The Lord is great!” 17But as for me, I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; you are my God, do not delay.
UtahTexan Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 5 hours ago, california boy said: Well since I am not allowed to be sealed to my partner in this life, than I assume you are voting on the Gays Not Allowed in The Celestial Kingdom group. Thanks for your input. There is no vote involved. It is from Heavenly Father
UtahTexan Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 5 hours ago, california boy said: Well as long as I can be with him throughout eternity in the Celestial Kingdom, that is all that matters. I am not worried about being sealed on this earth life to him, I will not worry about being sealed to him in the next. You will find out on the day of Judgment....just like everyone else
Storm Rider Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 3 hours ago, california boy said: Of course there is a lot more asked of a gay member. Gay couples can't marry the one they love, everyone else can. They can't have any sexual relations with the one they love. Everyone else can because they can marry the person they love. Both things go hand in hand. I get that the church demands anyone who is gay to not have sexual relations with the person they love. And I accept that. But does the fact that a gay couple who stay celibate also not allow them to enter the Celestial Kingdom together? Is there no plan of happiness for a gay couple? Or are they not allowed to be with the one they love for eternity. That is what I am not quite clear on in your answers. Yet is is really the only answer that is important to someone who is gay. I don't find the argument that an individual that has SSA being single all their life is inherently more difficult or challenging than any other individual that is single their entire life. I find them to be the same. The argument that one does not get to marry their loved one is a red herring. Between the two individuals I cited above which one did not marry the one they loved? Exactly the point - you don't know and no one else does either. None of us can judge who sacrifices more than anyone else to follow Christ. More importantly, I believe the same sacrifice is asked of each of us; he is no respecter of persons. Your real question is will a person with SSA be the same eternally that he is on earth? Put another way, if I suffer from temptations in this life won't I also suffer from the same temptations for all eternity? The answer is no - we will not suffer from temptations for eternity. We will be made perfect through the blood of Christ Jesus. His blood removes all sin from our lives and our beings. Sealings occur between family members from Adam down to each individual. Within those sealings there are couples who are sealed together in order to procreate, to bring all the spirit children down to this earth that are supposed to be here. The importance of that procreative ability is essential in the Plan of our Father in Heaven. This is also where the great sin of homosexuality is most clearly defined - it is completely sterile and cannot assist in the procreative purpose of this life. When God directed his first children to go and multiply God defined one of the great purposes of this life mortal existence - to unite spirit children with physical bodies. A gay couple is dead to this plan; they have put themselves beyond the Plan of God and defeat God's purpose. There are no sealings between a gay couple because it is unnecessary. The sealing must work from now back to Adam and from now into the future. A gay couple has no progeny and has consciously chosen not to have children by their choice of a partner. I am not trying to be vague or opaque. I hope that I have answered your question fully this time.
california boy Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: Have you ever thought, calb, that perhaps you are looking at it the wrong way from the very beginning? (as are all of us in some way). That as long as we look at our sacrifice as something that needs to be measured and compared to others and as something we are giving up, we will never be able to begin to see what God is offering us? What if the rich, young man had looked on Jesus' instruction to give away all his riches as an opportunity to be desired and not as a sacrifice? What joy and peace could he have then embraced? I think you may be looking at my comments in the wrong way. I am not bothered by the sacrifice that is asked of those that are gay. I am bothered by the relinquishing of love. How can someone give up the person they love and for what? Glory? It doesn't seem worth it. Not the sacrifice, but the glory. I would rather be eternally connected with the person I love than inherit a throne. Does that also seem like a selfish thing to do? Toss away the person you love for what? I still struggle what that is I am trading it for. It is only the realization that what you want the most, to be with the person you love above all else, may still not be given to you no matter what sacrifices or faith or works or righteousness. So far, the church has not offered that hope as a possibility. Can you understand why I no longer have faith or trust in the church, but put all my hope, and faith and trust to God. I believe in Him. I believe in His mercy. And I believe He would not ask me to rip the love out of my heart for my partner in exchange for glory or a throne or exaltation, whatever that is. 1
california boy Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: This thread goes on for 7 pages at this point, and I'm responding at page 3, with no time to slog through to the end (I'm trying to do a very important and complicated task here at home). But I am impressed at how rational, even-tempered, even-handed the discussion is going! Amazing. I was going to post a substantive answer to this thread, in particular to the question bolded above, but the best I could do was: It depends. Yes and no. I realize that that is useless, but the darned board software won't let you just cancel out. If I come back later this edit screen will still be waiting for me. Sorry, california boy, to give this such short shrift. This is single best thread on the topic that has ever appeared on this board, I think. This has been a very interesting thread. Actually, for me, I think one of the very best on how the church deals with gays. It is a complicated subject still with so many loose ends, that one finally has to realize that man still lacks understanding on this issue. Perhaps it will become clear someday, but it is far from clear right now. I think that most that responded to this thread realize there is a lot to consider and yet to understand. Further light and knowledge is needed. I certainly accept that. In the mean time, I will go on with my life, doing the best I can with the cards that have been dealt me, just like the rest of mankind. 2
mfbukowski Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 6 hours ago, california boy said: Well as long as I can be with him throughout eternity in the Celestial Kingdom, that is all that matters. I am not worried about being sealed on this earth life to him, I will not worry about being sealed to him in the next. Think about this We are the ONLY church which believes ANYONE will married in the afterlife. Everyone else believes they will be "friends" or have associations, but will not be married. Matthew 22:30 says this: Quote For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Most other Christians have a different interpretation of that scripture than we do- but every other group I know takes that to mean that there is no marriage in heaven. I won't go into our interpretation now, but the bottom line is that EVEN WITH SSM as accepted by some other Christian groups, no one believes you would be married to your partner in heaven anyway. AND it all depends on your interpretation of "heaven". LDS believe that if you are NOT sealed, you will be- as this verse says - "as the angels of God in heaven" All other faiths marry "Til death do we part" but not us! And we are promised that the reward awaiting us in the lowest kingdom, most people would call "heaven" anyway. I personally believe that gay people could be sealed to the opposite sex in the Celestial Kingdom as long as they strive to be righteous here, if they repent in the afterlife. You HAVE been married to a woman and only you know how you would feel about that, but you do NOT know how you might feel about it in the resurrection. I think that getting a new body which is perfect will correct many problems we might have with this one. So yes, in my interpretation as I see it, you could certainly be in "heaven" in some kingdom- I am not your judge, have the opportunity to be sealed if you want that later. You would not be married but know your companion on a friendship basis and be as close as you are now perhaps, considering the potential for human growth for others there. So yes of course you have a place in the "Plan of Happiness"- it applies to all of us and only he judges us and I believe it will be a perfectly righteous judgment. That's what I believe for what it's worth. I hope it helps some. 1
mfbukowski Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 49 minutes ago, california boy said: This has been a very interesting thread. Actually, for me, I think one of the very best on how the church deals with gays. It is a complicated subject still with so many loose ends, that one finally has to realize that man still lacks understanding on this issue. Perhaps it will become clear someday, but it is far from clear right now. I think that most that responded to this thread realize there is a lot to consider and yet to understand. Further light and knowledge is needed. I certainly accept that. In the mean time, I will go on with my life, doing the best I can with the cards that have been dealt me, just like the rest of mankind. For what it's worth coming from me, I think that's great, and the best anyone could ask of anyone We are all in that position, universally, as human beings. I also feel much better about these issues now. 1
Teancum Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Exactly! I thought nothing was exact based on your numerous posts about knowing things.
Teancum Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 1 hour ago, CountryBoy said: There is no vote involved. It is from Heavenly Father Is it? How are you so certain? Can you give us something over and beyond your own very subjective metaphysical experiences?
mfbukowski Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, Teancum said: I thought nothing was exact based on your numerous posts about knowing things. Shirley, you jest. My interpretations cohere with his. Like that better?
Teancum Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Shirley, you jest. My interpretations cohere with his. Like that better? I don't know Shirley, but no I don't jest. You post often about how uncertain things are and how we should follow our own paths, etc. then you post things as if it is all certainty for you which is it? Edited July 17, 2016 by Teancum
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