How Could Joseph Be So Wrong...and Yet Right?

[Johnnie Cake]

Josiah Quincy, grand son of John Quincy Adams visited Joseph Smith in Nauvoo . Quincy recorded the visit in his diary. These are his recollections as quoted in Brodies biography of Smith...

 

Quote

As they entered the Nauvoo Museum, Joseph introduced Lucy Smith: "This is my mother, gentlemen. The curiosities we shall see belong to her. They were purchased with her own money at a cost of six thousand dollars." Opening pine presses along the wall, he disclosed four black, shrunken bodies. "These are mummies," he said. "I want you to look at that little runt of a fellow over there. He was a great man in his day. Why that was Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt!" He pointed to various hieroglyphs on the papyri, which were preserved under glass. "That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful; this is the autograph of Moses, and these lines were written by his brother Aaron. Here we have the earliest accounts of the Creation, from which Moses composed the first Book of Genesis." When Quincy questioned him about a drawing of a serpent walking about on a pair of legs, he expanded heartily: "Why that's as plain as a pikestaff. Before the Fall snakes always went about on legs, just like chickens. They were deprived of them in punishment for their agency in the ruin of man."

Here is a list of false claims made by Smith:

01. That the mummy in possession of Smith was a Pharaoh

02. That the papyri held the handwriting of Abraham

03. That the papyri held the autograph of Moses

04. That the papyri contained the handwritting of Aaron

05. That the papyri was the earliest account of the creation from which Genesis was composed (the papyri had nothing to do with the Hewbrew creation story)

06. That snakes ever had legs

In fact not a single claim made by Smith is true.  Knowing this, how exactly am I to believe his other claim regarding the Book of Abraham? He made 6 claims and didn't make a single true claim, why should I believe his 7th claim regarding the words he dictated?

[Duncan]

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't this written almost 40 years after the fact? 

[Nevo]

32 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Here is a list of false claims made by Smith: . . .

06. That snakes ever had legs

That one is sort of true: http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/darwin/evolution-today/how-do-we-know-living-things-are-related/vestigial-organs/

But they didn't walk upright like chickens.

[The Nehor]

I am more inclined to doubt Josiah Quincy in this case. Now I admit Joseph most likely told him some pretty improbable stuff about Abraham and Joseph and I expect artistic license filled in the rest.

Either that or Joseph made up crazy stuff to convince visitors to believe him but never mentioned the same claims to his "credulous" followers.

Edited July 11, 2016 by The Nehor

[strappinglad]

And yet some say that chickens are descended from T-Rex so I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored.

[Glenn101]

21 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Josiah Quincy, grand son of John Quincy Adams visited Joseph Smith in Nauvoo . Quincy recorded the visit in his diary. These are his recollections as quoted in Brodies biography of Smith...

 

Here are a list of false claims made by Smith:

01. That the mummy in possession of Smith was a Pharaoh

02. That papyri held handwritting of Abraham

03. That papyri held the autograph of Moses

04. That papyri contained the handwritting of Aaron

05. That the papyri was the earliest account of the creation from which Genesis was composed

06. That snakes ever had legs

In fact not a single claim made by Smith is true.  Knowing this, how exactly am I to believe his other claim regarding the Book of Abraham? He made 6 claims and didn't make a single true claim, why should I believe his 7th claim regarding the words he dictated?

Was it Joseph making those claims, or someone claiming that he made those claims? Charlotte Haven claimed that she was told that the mummies were "King Onitus and his royal household." But I didn't know that anyone (outside of Joseph maybe) had ever identified those mummies.

As to your last claim about snakes, you are a bit behind the curve.

Glenn

[Johnnie Cake]

deleted

Edited July 10, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

Quote

I have endeavored to give the details of my visit to the Mormon prophet with absolute accuracy. If the reader does not know just what to make of Joseph Smith, I cannot help him out of the difficulty. I myself stand helpless before the puzzle-Josiah Quincy

 

[UtahTexan]

If one looks hard enough, one can find reasons to discount anyone.  I believe very strongly that I can destroy the credibility of anyone's parents, spouse, boss......

but to what end?

And just because I would, say, destroy or cause to to question the integrity of a person's spouse, does that mean the that person should no longer love that spouse?

It ultimately boils down to what the Holy Spirit has given and told a person.

Joseph Smith had warts.

I don't care.  Every prophet and apostle has had them.

 

[Monster]

We do know that Joseph claimed the papyri was written by Abraham, and we know for a fact it was not. We also know that he claimed to be able to translate it and again the facts have proven he did not. So there are at least two fibs that can be documented.

[Glenn101]

2 minutes ago, Monster said:

We do know that Joseph claimed the papyri was written by Abraham, and we know for a fact it was not. We also know that he claimed to be able to translate it and again the facts have proven he did not. So there are at least two fibs that can be documented.

Actually we do not know that Joseph said that the papyri were written by Abraham. If you would read the introduction to the Book of Abraham series in the times and seasons, you will see that it says "A translation Of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands, from the Catecombs of Egypt, purporting to be the writings of Abraham, while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.” 

And the facts are that we very apparently do not have all of the papyri that Joseph Smith had in his possession so one cannot say with any certainty that Joseph fibbed about that either.

This debate has been done and redone many times. I'll just drop off now because everything will just be a repetition of multiple repititions.

Glenn

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't this written almost 40 years after the fact? 

It was published some 40 years later from his diary which were contemporaneous  to the visit.

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It was published some 40 years later from his diary which were contemporaneous  to the visit.

and you have evidence that he wrote exactly what was said without anything added and that it underwent no changes over 40 years and was published exactly like it happened?

[Johnnie Cake]

Another often quoted Josiah Quincy quote from the same publication.

 

Quote

It is by no means improbable that some future textbook, for the use of generations yet unborn, will contain a question something like this: What historical American of the nineteenth century has exerted the most powerful influence upon the destinies of his countrymen? And it is by no means impossible that the answer to that interrogatory may be thus written: Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet.

 

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It was published some 40 years later from his diary which were contemporaneous  to the visit.

Published by whom?  Edited by anyone?

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

In fact not a single claim made by Smith is true.

Or perhaps he will yet be proven right.
Or perhaps he truly believed this and was mistaken.

None of it changes the fact that the Book of Abraham is true.  If the source turns out to be false, it wouldn't change that at all.

To paraphrase Jeffrey R. Holland "If Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham as a work of ancient origin, then I would move heaven and earth to meet the "real" nineteenth-century author."

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

Was it Joseph making those claims, or someone claiming that he made those claims? Charlotte Haven claimed that she was told that the mummies were "King Onitus and his royal household." But I didn't know that anyone (outside of Joseph maybe) had ever identified those mummies.

Here is what Charlotte Haven wrote about her visit to Lucy Mack Smith in Nauvoo:

"Madame Smith's residence is a log house very near her son's. She opened the door and received us cordially. She is a motherly kind of woman of about sixty years. She receives a little pittance (small wage) by exhibiting The Mummies to strangers. When we asked to see them, she lit a candle and conducted us up a short, narrow stairway to a low, dark room under the roof. On one side were standing half a dozen mummies, to whom she introduced us, King Onitus and his royal household, -- one she did not know. Then she took up what seemed to be a club wrapped in a dark cloth, and said "This is the leg of Pharaoh's daughter, the one that saved Moses." Repressing a smile, I looked from the mummies to the old lady. but could detect nothing but earnestness and sincerity on her countenance. Then she [Mother Smith] turned to a long table, set her candlestick down, and opened a long roll of manuscript (yes it was not a modern document - they didn't come in long rolls! Furthermore, old papyrus scrolls can be remarkably well preserved and "rollable"), saying it was "the writing of Abraham and Isaac, written in Hebrew and Sanscrit," and she read several minutes from it as if it were English. It sounded very much like passages from the Old Testament-and it might have been for anything we knew-but she said she read it through the inspiration of her son Joseph, in whom she seemed to have perfect confidence. Then in the same way she interpreted to us hieroglyphics from another roll. One was Mother Eve being tempted by the serpent, who-the serpent, I mean-was standing on the tip of his tail, which with his two legs formed a tripod, and had his head in Eve's ear. I said, "But serpents don't have legs. "They did before the fall," she asserted with perfect confidence."

[carbon dioxide]

58 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It was published some 40 years later from his diary which were contemporaneous  to the visit.

Regardless it would be considered hearsay in court. 

[Jeanne]

There has been a lot of things written many years after an event even I think..in the D&C.  We might not want to go down that road.

[James Tunney]

I think you all should just write it off as the "prophet" speaking as a man. I don't think the quote can be doubted as is the first line of defense and Josiah Quincy had a pretty good reputation so the ad hominem can't be used. So, the final line of defense should be employed.

[Tacenda]

 

That's how it rolls.

[UtahTexan]

13 minutes ago, James Tunney said:

I think you all should just write it off as the "prophet" speaking as a man. I don't think the quote can be doubted as is the first line of defense and Josiah Quincy had a pretty good reputation so the ad hominem can't be used. So, the final line of defense should be employed.

yet none of my questions were answered....and who determines reputation?  Do you have a reference to this "sterling rep"?

 

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Here is what Charlotte Haven wrote about her visit to Lucy Mack Smith in Nauvoo:

"Madame Smith's residence is a log house very near her son's. She opened the door and received us cordially. She is a motherly kind of woman of about sixty years. She receives a little pittance (small wage) by exhibiting The Mummies to strangers. When we asked to see them, she lit a candle and conducted us up a short, narrow stairway to a low, dark room under the roof. On one side were standing half a dozen mummies, to whom she introduced us, King Onitus and his royal household, -- one she did not know. Then she took up what seemed to be a club wrapped in a dark cloth, and said "This is the leg of Pharaoh's daughter, the one that saved Moses." Repressing a smile, I looked from the mummies to the old lady. but could detect nothing but earnestness and sincerity on her countenance. Then she [Mother Smith] turned to a long table, set her candlestick down, and opened a long roll of manuscript (yes it was not a modern document - they didn't come in long rolls! Furthermore, old papyrus scrolls can be remarkably well preserved and "rollable"), saying it was "the writing of Abraham and Isaac, written in Hebrew and Sanscrit," and she read several minutes from it as if it were English. It sounded very much like passages from the Old Testament-and it might have been for anything we knew-but she said she read it through the inspiration of her son Joseph, in whom she seemed to have perfect confidence. Then in the same way she interpreted to us hieroglyphics from another roll. One was Mother Eve being tempted by the serpent, who-the serpent, I mean-was standing on the tip of his tail, which with his two legs formed a tripod, and had his head in Eve's ear. I said, "But serpents don't have legs. "They did before the fall," she asserted with perfect confidence."

Son like mother... The Apple didn't fall far from the tree

[Jeanne]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

That's how it rolls.

I don't know why...but I just love this comment!

[Tacenda]

You're too nice to me Jeanne. 

[Tacenda]

Why is it that the TBM will never discredit their own quotes, but discredit quotes that are contrary?