Jeanne Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Why is it that the TBM will never discredit their own quotes, but discredit quotes that are contrary? Good question. Seems like sometimes I see a lot of jumping through hoops to make everything okay.
UtahTexan Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Why is it that the TBM will never discredit their own quotes, but discredit quotes that are contrary? why is it that people are not happy unless they are complaining on a Mormon board about Mormonism? Never seen so many folks so unhappy with life that they need to find fault and complain.
Storm Rider Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 Thanks for sharing, Johnnie. It is fun to dig up these kinds of things that have such a significant impact on the life of Joseph Smith and his family. Cannot really criticize the accusers, so it all must be as true as true can be. Mr. Tunney, in his crafty, wise way, has already demeaned the go-to solution, or "line of defense", we no one could possibly use that or believe it should i be used by those poor, stupid Mormons that have "faith". Yup, in a matter of mere seconds you have shown us all how stupid all of us must be to have faith. Other than that, I don't guess there is much to say in rebuttal to your powerful presentation. Sky was blue today, changed a counselor in the bishopric, said my prayers and read a little scripture. I killed a fly that got in the house. What were we talking about, I have forgotten. 2
Jeanne Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: why is it that people are not happy unless they are complaining on a Mormon board about Mormonism? Never seen so many folks so unhappy with life that they need to find fault and complain. Just to tick you off! What would you have to COMPLAIN about if we were not here??? You love it CB you do!!
Tacenda Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: why is it that people are not happy unless they are complaining on a Mormon board about Mormonism? Never seen so many folks so unhappy with life that they need to find fault and complain. The church can be true, whether Joseph lied or not. If it's true for you and others on this board, that is what matters, I think it's great! I am envious of many of you!
Calm Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 I know plenty of TBMs, including myself, who will discredit any quote---pro or con---if they are aware there is a problem. I don't know much about BoA so say nothing. I suspect Robert Smith could tell you if a particular quote is credible or not in this area? I could just as easily say "why don't TBMs ever get credit for providing decent sourcing for all types of quotes". But I wouldn't say it because I try not to make extreme generalizations. 1
UtahTexan Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The church can be true, whether Joseph lied or not. If it's true for you and others on this board, that is what matters, I think it's great! I am envious of many of you! It is not "true for me".....it is simply true.
Tacenda Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Calm said: I know plenty of TBMs, including myself, who will discredit any quote---pro or con---if they are aware there is a problem. I don't know much about BoA so say nothing. I suspect Robert Smith could tell you if a particular quote is credible or not in this area? I could just as easily say "why don't TBMs ever get credit for providing decent sourcing for all types of quotes". But I wouldn't say it because I try not to make extreme generalizations. Agree!
UtahTexan Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 5 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Just to tick you off! What would you have to COMPLAIN about if we were not here??? You love it CB you do!! I am not complaining.....I was once like y'all. I felt the need to go to a website and simply bash and find fault. Then I realized......how pathetic was it to go to a board just to find fault with something others feel so strongly about. So, I no longer do that. It would be like me going to your house and finding fault with your family members just for the sake of finding fault. Shrugs.....I just can't do that anymore. 1
Tacenda Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 1 minute ago, CountryBoy said: I am not complaining.....I was once like y'all. I felt the need to go to a website and simply bash and find fault. Then I realized......how pathetic was it to go to a board just to find fault with something others feel so strongly about. So, I no longer do that. It would be like me going to your house and finding fault with your family members just for the sake of finding fault. Shrugs.....I just can't do that anymore. I know Jeanne doesn't come on here for that, nor do I. Just want the truth. 1
UtahTexan Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I know Jeanne doesn't come on here for that, nor do I. Just want the truth. Not the way you come across.
Tacenda Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 8 minutes ago, Calm said: Then quit making unrealisic digs at believers. Where is the dig?
Calm Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 Seriously? You don't see implying TBMs are intellectually dishonest because they will never discredit their own quotes, but only others as a dig? 3
The Nehor Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Why is it that the TBM will never discredit their own quotes, but discredit quotes that are contrary? Actually there are many quotes from Joseph's followers that I distrust. The enthusiasm of a follower can lead to exaggeration in the same way the hatred of an enemy can. 3
The Nehor Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I have endeavored to give the details of my visit to the Mormon prophet with absolute accuracy. If the reader does not know just what to make of Joseph Smith, I cannot help him out of the difficulty. I myself stand helpless before the puzzle-Josiah Quincy Well if he endeavored to be absolutely accurate then I believe we can accept with absolute surety that he was. [/sarcasm]
The Nehor Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: In fact not a single claim made by Smith is true. Ever? That is quite the claim. You are suggesting that every claim he ever made in his life is false? Is that even possible? 5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Knowing this, how exactly am I to believe his other claim regarding the Book of Abraham? You aren't. 5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: He made 6 claims and didn't make a single true claim, why should I believe his 7th claim regarding the words he dictated? No, someone else said he made those claims. A sole source. You would think with all the things he did record or that were repeated multiple times you would pick on those instead. But no, gotta go for the dubious low-hanging fruit. 3
Mystery Meat Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: Then quit making unrealisic digs at believers. AMEN.
Johnnie Cake Posted July 11, 2016 Author Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) Back to the OP: I'm asking this respectfully and wish no offense... The question I am attempting to ask here (perhaps poorly) is after making the observation that Joseph Smith, as related by Quincy, and evidentially his mother also...had a penchant for just making things up and then spouting them as truth. I've noticed a pattern in Joseph's life where he has done this. The whole Zelph story, where Smith is presented with a bone and then goes on to make up this whole tall tale history and back story about the life of Zelph...his fame from Rocky Mountains to the sea...and his made up story about the Kinderhook Plates...how they contained (again Smith fascination with fictional Biblical histories) a history of Noah's descendants, Ham and company or whatever. There seems to be this consistency in his themes of just making things up and then telling them as if they were actual truths. So I'm left to wonder how exactly any claimed history that has his finger prints on it could be taken seriously. Does anyone else find difficulty here or is it just me? I'm sure I've left out other good example in Smith's life where he has made up other stories and passed them off as true events (and no I'm not referring to LDS Scripture) But other stories...but none seem to come to mind...but this pattern of him doing this does cast a shadow on his other works...at least for me it does. If we conduct a mind experiment and remove all scripture from the world...Mankind and human knowledge would still know about Israel as a nation, Jerusalem would still exist as would, Egypt, Canaan even Jesus, Paul, and Caesar would still exist as historical figures. If you extend this thought experiment to the Book of Mormon...nothing would exist, no Nephites , no Mormon, no Moroni, no Lamanites etc...it is only through the very book that we are even aware of the claimed BoM civilizations...had it never been written we wouldn't be talking about these claimed civilizations...and it is Smith credibility we must rely upon. Edited July 11, 2016 by Johnnie Cake 2
stemelbow Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 Beats me if you should believe BoA is scripture. Hardly any Mormons I know treat it as anything more than one passage of scripture worth considering--Abr 3:22-28 ish where he says he saw himself before the world was. But I will say, every single tour of a museum or historic tour of any kind seems filled with confident assertions that can be nothing more than guesswork. Maybe there's a stronger tradition of that from way back when. It'd be cute if they told people different things about the mummies. The stories changed as time went on, I guess.
Johnnie Cake Posted July 11, 2016 Author Posted July 11, 2016 11 hours ago, The Nehor said: Ever? That is quite the claim. You are suggesting that every claim he ever made in his life is false? Is that even possible? You aren't. No, someone else said he made those claims. A sole source. You would think with all the things he did record or that were repeated multiple times you would pick on those instead. But no, gotta go for the dubious low-hanging fruit. Nehor...I understand where you're coming from and perhaps you are right that this is the low hanging fruit...and if you've successfully dismissed it or worked it out in you mind, "good on yeah Mate"....but it is still the stuff I'm trying to sort out...so I ask the questions. Quincy's statements are often used in LDS apologetics to support Smith when those quotes are supportive...should they then be dismissed when they shine a less than flatering light on his claims? 2
ALarson Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 22 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Back to the OP: I'm asking this respectfully and wish no offense... The question I am attempting to ask here (perhaps poorly) is after making the observation that Joseph Smith, as related by Quincy, and evidentially his mother also...had a penchant for just making things up and then spouting them as truth. Well, they both (Lucy and Joseph) seemed to agree that snakes walked like men and had legs before the fall and that that scroll contained the writings of Abraham. We have 2 statements from different witnesses corroborating this (if they can be believed, of course). Lucy must have been quite the character and she's always been a person from church history that I would have loved to have met. Her story about the leg of the Pharaoh's daughter being with the mummies and scrolls is interesting and I wonder if she just came up with that on her own or if it came from Joseph?
ALarson Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) 21 hours ago, CountryBoy said: and you have evidence that he wrote exactly what was said without anything added and that it underwent no changes over 40 years and was published exactly like it happened? Well, Charles Adams (who was with Josiah Quincy when they visited Joseph) makes a similar statement): Quote Charles Adams, Quincy's companion, describes this portion of the interview: "He then took us down into his mother's chamber [in the Mansion House] and showed us four Egyptian mummies stripped and then undertook to explain the contents of a chart of manuscript which he said had been taken from the bosom of one of them. The cool impudence of this imposture amused me very much. `This,' said he, `was written by the hand of Abraham and means so and so. If anyone denies it, let him prove the contrary. I say it.' Of course we were too polite to prove the negative, against a man fortified by revelation.'" (Diary of Charles Adams, May 15, 1844, in Proceedings of the Massachusetts Historical Society vol. LXVII, 1952 p. 285) Edited July 11, 2016 by ALarson 2
Tacenda Posted July 11, 2016 Posted July 11, 2016 8 minutes ago, ALarson said: Well, they both (Lucy and Joseph) seemed to agree that snakes walked like men and had legs before the fall and that that scroll contained the writings of Abraham. We have 2 statements from different witnesses corroborating this (if they can be believed, of course). Lucy must have been quite the character and she's always been a person from church history that I would have loved to have met. Her story about the leg of the Pharaoh's daughter being with the mummies and scrolls is interesting and I wonder if she just came up with that on her own or if it came from Joseph? Remembering a book by a psychologist that wrote a book about Joseph's growing up with an alcoholic father, and losing their home. They were desperate for money, and having to rent homes or just the hardship of living house to house and not being able to afford things. I think that early on the Smith's were doing what they could to survive, and maybe these mummies was one way they could.
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