BlueDreams Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Five Solas said: To be sure, many Christians have struggled to adapt to increasing urbanization and density. And DCC doesn't flinch in its description of the challenge. Note that. And note too how it explicitly calls out some previous efforts haven't worked (the line you quoted in your third paragraph) and that a different approach should be made to reach the city. Regardless what you may think of church planting as a method for outreach, it's refreshing to read such candor, is it not? (I'm not seeking to dodge your questions, but church planting vs. other missionary type activities is a topic for another thread.) Compare what you read on DCC's site with some of the responses here. Aside from some downsizing in NYC to adapt (described by smac97), it's not at all clear LDS think there's much of a problem for them--and therefore they can carry on much as before. Because things are pretty good in a few places, right? I'm certainly not calling on the LDS Church to change. But I do think this topic reveals something about the LDS worldview--and is therefore worth the exploration we're giving it here. --Erik I'm confused as to what you'd expect from the church on this in the first place. I don't think it's a concern of ignoring a reduction in an area. It's more along the lines of having no clue what would be done in the first place. As for me (a millennial) I don't want to live in a city. I don't have kids. I just hate dense and crowded area for long periods of time. Plus most of my interests are not city oriented (minus art and some cultural events) and a good number of my friends aren't planning to either. The ones that are or want to usually grew up in cities. (Minus one, and I'm not sure if he lives in the city or burbs near a city). They also have no or 1 child, are single or newly married. Or are at least monetarily more established. But if you can get people further apart, put a few mountains right next to it, and outdoor activities that aren't contrived parks and potted gardens and I'll think about city life. with luv, BD 3
deli_llama Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 8 hours ago, Five Solas said: We're neighbors! (or a least in adjacent Seattle neighborhoods). Shoot me a message & I'll buy you a drink (beverage of your choice). --Erik I might just do that, beverage of my choice, I will have to keep that in mind. 1
Jeanne Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 25 minutes ago, deli_llama said: I might just do that, beverage of my choice, I will have to keep that in mind. Margarita! 1
Garden Girl Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 I've posted here long enough that most of you know that my husband and I retired from San Francisco here to the wilds of the central Oregon coast... that was 25 years ago when we built our retirement home at a golf resort called "Salishan" in Gleneden Beach, just south of Lincoln City with LC's population of 7,000... I was employed at San Fran State Univ, and loved San Francisco with its beauty... the city by the Bay... but by time we retired we were more than ready to leave the city... it had changed... our lives had changed... now after 25 years here on the coast, I can hardly bring myself to go into Portland, Salem or Corvallis... My ward is small, except during summer and holidays when our visitors can grow our ward by double or triple... You would not believe how many family reunions from Utah and Idaho find their way here, and subsequently visitors who hear about us... but we love our visitors and welcome them, some returning year after year... they capture the magic that seems to be our ward... our little Lincoln City... and most of all, the beach. And they are surprised to find that we also have a huge lake... Devil's Lake... which is several miles long... Our ward is small so we have to ask the visiting deacons to assist in passing sacrament when our numbers are 350+ and every folding chair is occupied clear to the back of the cultural hall. On Fast Sunday, there are just as many visitors sharing their testimonies as regular members. On 4th of July when we celebrate we will have many visitors attending our annual ward breakfast. Well, I guess you can see how I feel about our ward in our small town vs the City... GG 3
carbon dioxide Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) 23 hours ago, Five Solas said: Appreciate your responses, smac97. But I think you're mistaken. Here's one reason: Millennials by & large aren't keen on suburbia with all it's sprawl (however exciting suburbia was for Boomers and Gen-Xers). Millennials like to live in the city. And increasingly, they aren't moving to the suburbs when they get married and have kids (which is why Seattle School District has been scrambling to open new schools to accommodate them). If you doubt this fact, you should spend a little time at Amazon (located in Seattle's South Lake Union neighborhood) and then compare/contrast what you see going on at a certain software company with headquarters in an East-side suburb--Redmond (I'll let you guess who that might be). I promise it won't take you long to figure out which one is attracting more Millennials vs. Gen-Xers. If the LDS Church can't figure out how to prosper in large and growing cities, it's in real danger of failing to reach the best & brightest of an entire generation. Not that I'm in any way invested in its success (I'm not). But I am genuinely curious if LDS are oblivious and/or feel they can safely ignore this hugely significant cultural trend in the early 21st century. --Erik Cities are great places to live when things are going well and there is peace in the land. But you don't want to be in a city when disaster hits. There is a big fault line off the Washington/Oregon coast. This fault can create a 9.0 plus size quake and it is due to have a another big quake at anytime. In this case, it might be good that few LDS are in the target zone It there is any generation that is not prepared for disaster it in the Millennial one. To many a disaster is when Facebook does down for a few hours. Many Americans were able to survive the great depression because they lived in rural areas and could grow their own food. If there is ever another economic disaster like the depression, a lot of Americans will starve to death or die in large riots due to too many people living in cities. People are just too dependent in the cities and when you are around a lot of other people who in in crisis, the results are not good. New Orleans during Katrina is an example what happens when things fall apart. Plus lets factor in the "climate change" models that has cities being affected badly by rising seas Being in a city might not be a good choice in the long term. Edited June 29, 2016 by carbon dioxide 2
carbon dioxide Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 9 hours ago, USU78 said: Young marrieds often stay in town, even after the first child, but if further children come, they flee the noise, sprawl, mess and moronic politicians in major cities for the suburbs ... this isn't exactly a new phenomenon, and the fact that feckless, inexperienced millennials stay in town longer (if they really do) is evidence of their cluelessness and, perhaps, selfishness. Moving out of the city (SLC) to the suburbs (Farmington) was tough for me, but by the time our second child came, I couldn't have been more relieved. I love living in Lehi. Still get to see enough stars in the sky at night and close enough to all the major things I need. I grew up in LA so I know the city thing well enough. Its great when things are going well. I remember look out over the city during the riots in 1992 and all the smoke rising in the sky. City life not so great when it all falls to pot. 3
Five Solas Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 10 hours ago, USU78 said: ... the fact that feckless, inexperienced millennials stay in town longer (if they really do) is evidence of their cluelessness and, perhaps, selfishness. ... Had an idea this thread could reveal division between the urban & the otherwise--but I didn't anticipate stirring inter-generational antipathy. And though it's off-topic, I can't help but note the irony: When I was growing up LDS, we were taught the best (valiant spirits in the pre-existence) were saved for last. It was kind of flattering, I'll confess. But you appear to think the LDS heavenly father is reaching the bottom of his spirit-child barrel, so to speak, with the current generation. No doubt a rich hypothesis for another thread. But I think it is fair to ask whether questing for the best education for your children (as a previous poster on the thread suggested was an advantage of the city) should really be regarded as selfishness. In a Richard Dawkins/The Selfish Gene sense--you'd have a strong argument, of course. But would that be the prevailing view here? Perhaps not. --Erik PS. And now, let us pay tribute to suburbia (even if we're not much fans) with a couple of tracks on the topic: First up, David Bowie, from his sometimes overlooked 1993 soundtrack album, The Buddha of Suburbia. Title track, *here.* Second, the inimitable Pet Shop Boys on the topic, with Suburbia. PPS. Nobody has to see you dancing, smac97... ;0)
ladyshanae Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 4 hours ago, Garden Girl said: I've posted here long enough that most of you know that my husband and I retired from San Francisco here to the wilds of the central Oregon coast... that was 25 years ago when we built our retirement home at a golf resort called "Salishan" in Gleneden Beach, just south of Lincoln City with LC's population of 7,000... I was employed at San Fran State Univ, and loved San Francisco with its beauty... the city by the Bay... but by time we retired we were more than ready to leave the city... it had changed... our lives had changed... now after 25 years here on the coast, I can hardly bring myself to go into Portland, Salem or Corvallis... My ward is small, except during summer and holidays when our visitors can grow our ward by double or triple... You would not believe how many family reunions from Utah and Idaho find their way here, and subsequently visitors who hear about us... but we love our visitors and welcome them, some returning year after year... they capture the magic that seems to be our ward... our little Lincoln City... and most of all, the beach. And they are surprised to find that we also have a huge lake... Devil's Lake... which is several miles long... Our ward is small so we have to ask the visiting deacons to assist in passing sacrament when our numbers are 350+ and every folding chair is occupied clear to the back of the cultural hall. On Fast Sunday, there are just as many visitors sharing their testimonies as regular members. On 4th of July when we celebrate we will have many visitors attending our annual ward breakfast. Well, I guess you can see how I feel about our ward in our small town vs the City... GG I've visited many times myself! Super friendly ward My husband and I dream about owning a beach house out that way someday. We live about 2 hours north of you 1
Five Solas Posted July 2, 2016 Author Posted July 2, 2016 On 6/28/2016 at 11:13 AM, BlueDreams said: I'm confused as to what you'd expect from the church on this in the first place. I don't think it's a concern of ignoring a reduction in an area. It's more along the lines of having no clue what would be done in the first place. As for me (a millennial) I don't want to live in a city. I don't have kids. I just hate dense and crowded area for long periods of time. Plus most of my interests are not city oriented (minus art and some cultural events) and a good number of my friends aren't planning to either. The ones that are or want to usually grew up in cities. (Minus one, and I'm not sure if he lives in the city or burbs near a city). They also have no or 1 child, are single or newly married. Or are at least monetarily more established. But if you can get people further apart, put a few mountains right next to it, and outdoor activities that aren't contrived parks and potted gardens and I'll think about city life. with luv, BD Mulling over your post, a few thoughts in my head. Regarding your opening sentence, I really don't expect or ask the LDS Church to do anything. I'll share what was on my mind when I wrote it. My sister and her two daughters (a little older than mine) visited last weekend, leaving early Sunday morning. Not sure if they would have noticed the rainbow flag on their drive back to the airport, destination SLC followed by a drive across the border into Wyoming. But it spurred my thinking - their life vs. mine. The opportunities for her children vs. the opportunities the city affords to mine. She's picked up on it too. I offered to host her oldest son next summer so he could participate in some of the programs University of Washington does for high school students (the UW main entrance is 5 blocks from my house). I hope they'll take us up on it. Kind of long-winded, I realize, but thought it might be worth unpacking for perspective's sake. I get it, individuals have preferences. You do, I do. My father-in-law lives in one of Seattle's suburbs because it affords him the space to grow a large rose garden (and he's *really* into that). But when you see families on the increase in urban centers while LDS are on the decrease (exactly what's happening in Seattle)--it's reasonable to suppose there might be more to it than mere individual preferences. It suggests something about LDS collectively. Perhaps it's related to their worldview, their economy--whatever it might be--that's what I was hoping to explore here in this thread. Make sense, Blue? --Erik
Atheist Mormon Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 On 6/26/2016 at 8:14 PM, VideoGameJunkie said: I will never support the rainbow flag. It is one of those things...Like my wife never votes for Democrats..Because she comes from a conservative, well to do family...I....I always hated Republican Party because of it's social views....No matter how qualified candidates they'd put....Now I'm not that radical, I can vote for the most qualified person. To me, supporting or not......is OK as long as we can come to a civil conclusion, decided by law.......
Bernard Gui Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 (edited) On June 26, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Five Solas said: A large rainbow flag flies from the Space Needle today. We passed it on our way to church this morning and my 7 year-old asked about it. She’s already aware from school that a child can sometimes have two mommies or two daddies. And (with help from my wife) I explained that the flag represents gays or homosexuals and we should treat people the way we would want to be treated. Pride parades take place in major cities across the United States (and elsewhere) this time of year. And it got me thinking—many if not most LDS eschew urban living, preferring sub-urban lifestyles (where the sight of a rainbow flag is a good deal rarer). The LDS community within the Seattle city limits has been in gradual decline over the past couple decades, consolidating/closing wards (e.g., University 4th, the International Ward) while the city’s population has grown rapidly during this same period (meaning LDS per-capita in Seattle has been in a fairly steep decline). Interestingly, the North Seattle Stake has done away with the old ward numbering scheme and given their remaining wards neighborhood names approximate to their boundaries—and that illustrates a problem. With the exception of Magnolia (where a dedicated building has long supported a single neighborhood ward) and the three remaining "young single adult" wards that meet in the University of Washington LDS Institute building—everyone else from downtown to Northgate, Ballard to Sand Point is expected to pile into their cars and make the trip to the stake center each Sunday. The key word right there is “cars”—an essential & expected tool in suburbia, but people in the city increasingly don’t have them (parking alone can cost up to $300/month). And suffice it to say, mass transit accessibility wasn’t a primary concern for the location of the stake center. Pride parades may be the proverbial red herring. And Seattle may be a special case with zero application for the broader LDS religious community (some of you may hope so). But my question is this: Do you think there’s anything inherent in the LDS culture/religion that favors suburban lifestyles with its automobile dependency, relative conservatism, and other aspects of life associated with suburbs? --Erik PS. I love the city! I like going to Seattle (from Puyallup) for events, but I'm always happier to leave the city and go back home. There is a smug gloomy oppressiveness about the place in spite of its beautiful setting. Portland is worse. That said, I was sad to see the rainbow flag over the Space Needle and the two stadiums lit up like rainbows. Four of my children work in the city but live in the suburbs...Covington, Issaquah, Newcastle, and Puyallup.....because they can't afford to live in the city, and 3 of them make a lot of money. None of them even wants to live in the city, primarily because of the schools. Interesting that you think they are so great and they think they are so bad. The same is true in San Francisco and LA, and probably other large progressive cities. The political and moral climate in Seattle would preclude me from wanting to raise my family there. Edited July 2, 2016 by Bernard Gui 2
Bernard Gui Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 On June 28, 2016 at 6:39 PM, carbon dioxide said: Cities are great places to live when things are going well and there is peace in the land. But you don't want to be in a city when disaster hits. There is a big fault line off the Washington/Oregon coast. This fault can create a 9.0 plus size quake and it is due to have a another big quake at anytime. In this case, it might be good that few LDS are in the target zone It there is any generation that is not prepared for disaster it in the Millennial one. To many a disaster is when Facebook does down for a few hours. Many Americans were able to survive the great depression because they lived in rural areas and could grow their own food. If there is ever another economic disaster like the depression, a lot of Americans will starve to death or die in large riots due to too many people living in cities. People are just too dependent in the cities and when you are around a lot of other people who in in crisis, the results are not good. New Orleans during Katrina is an example what happens when things fall apart. Plus lets factor in the "climate change" models that has cities being affected badly by rising seas Being in a city might not be a good choice in the long term. A long read, but well worth the time.... Potential Massive Seismic Event Calls for Drastic Action on West Coast Dateline Seattle10 June 2016 Starbunks News Service The Seattle City Council voted today to halt all automobile and truck traffic entering the city on the westbound freeways. The vote came as members expressed concerns over studies recently published by the University of Washington Department of Geopolitigraphy which show increasing seismic activity in the massive Cascadia Fault that stretches from Vancouver BC to San Diego CA. The studies conclude that as more and more people move into the coastal regions, the added weight of people, cars, trucks, houses, and Costco stores on the western edge of the Cascadia Tectonic Plate is causing it to dip below the offshore Pacifica Plate. Massive increases in the homeless populations of coastal cities have exacerbated the weight redistribution. When the displacement reaches a critical level, the plates will slide over and under each other causing a level 15.8 earthquake that could shear off the entire West coast of the US. Council member Kashew Savant-Murphay praised the Council's decision. "By taking this bold step, Seattle will lead the way in preventing a great disaster. We hope other West coast cities follow Seattle's progressive and proactive lead. A special 1%er Commuter Honorarium of $295 per mile will allow access to the city by Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, and a few other select car owners. (Of course, Council members will be exempt from the fee.) Keeping cars and trucks on the eastern side of the Cascadia Plate will counterbalance the weight, bring the plates back into equilibrium, and make more freeways accessible to homeless encampments," Savant-Murphay said. Later in the meeting, the Council voted to give free Iced Espotto Pottiato Pottes to any of the remaining 27 Republicans living in Seattle who offers to move to Spokane. 3
ERMD Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 It seems to me that a specific issue in a specific area with a specific demographic is being extrapolated to a global church with a very diverse membership. Kind of like the blind men and the elephant. 1
Guest Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 On June 26, 2016 at 10:08 PM, Storm Rider said: Seattle is a great. livable city and remains my favorite city in the United States. This is a perspective/preference thing. Many would not want to raise children in place made of concrete. Many feel that raising a family is more easily accomplished in the suburbs. The growth of Seattle has motivated many people to move out to the 'burbs and enjoy that way of life. Young professionals and empty-nesters wanting to downsize are moving back in to the city. I think this is more cultural than religious. I hope you and your family continue to enjoy the city. How does the rainbow flag, and the combining of Wards have to do with each other? 1
Five Solas Posted July 2, 2016 Author Posted July 2, 2016 17 minutes ago, Pa Pa said: How does the rainbow flag, and the combining of Wards have to do with each other? Correlation doesn't imply causation--so potentially they have nothing to do each other. As I suggested in my OP, rainbow flags could be the proverbial "red herring" on this matter. I honestly don't know the answer. That acknowledged, we've had at least a couple of LDS on the thread express their aversion and even "sadness" over the presence of rainbow flags. And we have an indisputably growing city with increasing numbers of families & children (resulting in a number of new schools being opened/built). And in this growing city with growing numbers of families and children--LDS are increasingly opting out and heading elsewhere, resulting in ward consolidations. The ratio of LDS in the city is dwindling. It's not just a case of a couple ward consolidations in a growing city. I see it in my own workplace, headquartered downtown--I now have as many Muslims as I do LDS on the team I manage (1 each in a team of over 60). 10 years ago, that wasn't the case. Some on the thread have suggested it's because cities are increasingly hostile to families and family-oriented institutions like the LDS Church. But that explanation/excuse flies in the face of the increasing number of children living here. Thus far we haven't found an explanation consistent with the facts on the ground. So why don't you share your opinion, Pa Pa? Do you think there's any relationship to be drawn between rainbow flags and LDS ward consolidations? I'm not arguing there is--I'm just seeking to better understand the situation & how it looks through LDS eyes. --Erik PS. In case you missed it, I'm not the only one here noticing the trend. Please see the post from deli_llama earlier in the thread who lives in a Seattle neighborhood North of me.
Storm Rider Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Pa Pa said: How does the rainbow flag, and the combining of Wards have to do with each other? I think the context used by Five Solas comes from just being downtown in a urban setting. Many of us who have lived in Seattle have said there is no "Right" wing in the local governments - there are just two Left wings: Liberal and just plain whacko. As the city of Seattle has grown in population a few of the older wards have merged. It has also happened in Seattle's sister city of Bellevue, which is much more conservative, but in the last ten years we have seen it have a more liberal influence. It is a shame because Bellevue is a very clean, safe city and as the liberal influence has come it has brought the problems that are often seen with it. Gads, that sounds elitist of me, but it is what it is. 1
Bernard Gui Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 4 hours ago, Pa Pa said: How does the rainbow flag, and the combining of Wards have to do with each other? From the OP: Quote A large rainbow flag flies from the Space Needle today. We passed it on our way to church this morning and my 7 year-old asked about it. She’s already aware from school that a child can sometimes have two mommies or two daddies. And (with help from my wife) I explained that the flag represents gays or homosexuals and we should treat people the way we would want to be treated. Pride parades take place in major cities across the United States (and elsewhere) this time of year. And it got me thinking—many if not most LDS eschew urban living, preferring sub-urban lifestyles (where the sight of a rainbow flag is a good deal rarer). The LDS community within the Seattle city limits has been in gradual decline over the past couple decades, consolidating/closing wards (e.g., University 4th, the International Ward) while the city’s population has grown rapidly during this same period (meaning LDS per-capita in Seattle has been in a fairly steep decline). Interestingly, the North Seattle Stake has done away with the old ward numbering scheme and given their remaining wards neighborhood names approximate to their boundaries—and that illustrates a problem. With the exception of Magnolia (where a dedicated building has long supported a single neighborhood ward) and the three remaining "young single adult" wards that meet in the University of Washington LDS Institute building—everyone else from downtown to Northgate, Ballard to Sand Point is expected to pile into their cars and make the trip to the stake center each Sunday. The key word right there is “cars”—an essential & expected tool in suburbia, but people in the city increasingly don’t have them (parking alone can cost up to $300/month). And suffice it to say, mass transit accessibility wasn’t a primary concern for the location of the stake center. Pride parades may be the proverbial red herring. And Seattle may be a special case with zero application for the broader LDS religious community (some of you may hope so). But my question is this: Do you think there’s anything inherent in the LDS culture/religion that favors suburban lifestyles with its automobile dependency, relative conservatism, and other aspects of life associated with suburbs?
Bernard Gui Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, Five Solas said: Correlation doesn't imply causation--so potentially they have nothing to do each other. As I suggested in my OP, rainbow flags could be the proverbial "red herring" on this matter. I honestly don't know the answer. That acknowledged, we've had at least a couple of LDS on the thread express their aversion and even "sadness" over the presence of rainbow flags. And we have an indisputably growing city with increasing numbers of families & children (resulting in a number of new schools being opened/built). And in this growing city with growing numbers of families and children--LDS are increasingly opting out and heading elsewhere, resulting in ward consolidations. The ratio of LDS in the city is dwindling. It's not just a case of a couple ward consolidations in a growing city. I see it in my own workplace, headquartered downtown--I now have as many Muslims as I do LDS on the team I manage (1 each in a team of over 60). 10 years ago, that wasn't the case. Some on the thread have suggested it's because cities are increasingly hostile to families and family-oriented institutions like the LDS Church. But that explanation/excuse flies in the face of the increasing number of children living here. Thus far we haven't found an explanation consistent with the facts on the ground. So why don't you share your opinion, Pa Pa? Do you think there's any relationship to be drawn between rainbow flags and LDS ward consolidations? I'm not arguing there is--I'm just seeking to better understand the situation & how it looks through LDS eyes. --Erik PS. In case you missed it, I'm not the only one here noticing the trend. Please see the post from deli_llama earlier in the thread who lives in a Seattle neighborhood North of me. In the case of Seattle, a lot of LDS people I know choose not to live there because of its uber-progressive values that make it undesirable for conservative families with kids. I would not live there if you gave me free rent. Every time we visit downtown there's some sort of demonstration/parade/march/protest near the Market and some new insane policy from the city council that messes up lives. It gets tiresome. If LDS move out of a city for political/moral/social reasons, then wards will shut down. I was bishop of the north-end Tacoma ward when the schools got really bad and things in that area became sketchy. We were afraid for our women and kids to be in the chapel after dark. Our ward shrank as family after family moved to University Place or across the bridge to Gig Harbor (Gig Heaven, as they called it at the time). We eventually left for Puyallup for the same reason. We did not want our kids to go to Tacoma schools, and I got hit by rocks when I tried to break up a fight at the junior high where I taught. I believe in recent times that ward has been absorbed into two or three others. Edited July 3, 2016 by Bernard Gui
rodheadlee Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 18 hours ago, Five Solas said: Correlation doesn't imply causation--so potentially they have nothing to do each other. As I suggested in my OP, rainbow flags could be the proverbial "red herring" on this matter. I honestly don't know the answer. That acknowledged, we've had at least a couple of LDS on the thread express their aversion and even "sadness" over the presence of rainbow flags. And we have an indisputably growing city with increasing numbers of families & children (resulting in a number of new schools being opened/built). And in this growing city with growing numbers of families and children--LDS are increasingly opting out and heading elsewhere, resulting in ward consolidations. The ratio of LDS in the city is dwindling. It's not just a case of a couple ward consolidations in a growing city. I see it in my own workplace, headquartered downtown--I now have as many Muslims as I do LDS on the team I manage (1 each in a team of over 60). 10 years ago, that wasn't the case. Some on the thread have suggested it's because cities are increasingly hostile to families and family-oriented institutions like the LDS Church. But that explanation/excuse flies in the face of the increasing number of children living here. Thus far we haven't found an explanation consistent with the facts on the ground. So why don't you share your opinion, Pa Pa? Do you think there's any relationship to be drawn between rainbow flags and LDS ward consolidations? I'm not arguing there is--I'm just seeking to better understand the situation & how it looks through LDS eyes. --Erik PS. In case you missed it, I'm not the only one here noticing the trend. Please see the post from deli_llama earlier in the thread who lives in a Seattle neighborhood North of me. The obvious answer is your average LDS does not want to live in your progressive city. It would seem that your definition of progress and their definition of progress are two different things. 1
thesometimesaint Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 35 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: The obvious answer is your average LDS does not want to live in your progressive city. It would seem that your definition of progress and their definition of progress are two different things. The average LDS isn't as Utahcentric as you seem to think.
BlueDreams Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 On June 28, 2016 at 7:20 AM, Five Solas said: To be sure, many Christians have struggled to adapt to increasing urbanization and density. And DCC doesn't flinch in its description of the challenge. Note that. And note too how it explicitly calls out some previous efforts haven't worked (the line you quoted in your third paragraph) and that a different approach should be made to reach the city. Regardless what you may think of church planting as a method for outreach, it's refreshing to read such candor, is it not? (I'm not seeking to dodge your questions, but church planting vs. other missionary type activities is a topic for another thread.) Compare what you read on DCC's site with some of the responses here. Aside from some downsizing in NYC to adapt (described by smac97), it's not at all clear LDS think there's much of a problem for them--and therefore they can carry on much as before. Because things are pretty good in a few places, right? I'm certainly not calling on the LDS Church to change. But I do think this topic reveals something about the LDS worldview--and is therefore worth the exploration we're giving it here. --Erik Makes sense. I grew up no more than 30 minutes from a big city all of my life. Most of that was DC area. Very few people live in DC proper compared to just outside of it. But I can get the pull of cities. It was a cultural and political hub. Among my earliest memories were things like major elections, going to the national symphony, the presidential Easter egg hunt, kite-flying on the Mall, and museums. The LDS population around DC, from what I know is in no way shrinking. Quite the opposite. But the again DC metroplex is not your averag urban area and a lot of it aprawls into suburban areas. I think it's probably still a little cultural than anything else and it would be hard to know if that's true for any other lds populations outside the u.s. As for me it could be both preference (too many people, outdoors lover, etc), cultural (all of my parents were raised in rural settings and now live in suburbia), or maybe a little religious when it comes to wanting a larger than the American average family at some point...that one, currently is the least important cuz I have no kids. But hypothetically if I have a family, I can't imagine having less than 3 and probably 4 (which I would say is religious...it is...but it's also familial ). But honestly I don't think there's much more beyond the amount of children and when they're having them. All of my friends have kids and the two closet to me in age (late 20's) are planning #3-4 respectively. Having that many kids on the incomes they make in a city is just not all that feasible. With luv, BD 2
rodheadlee Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The average LDS isn't as Utahcentric as you seem to think. I didn't say anything about Utah. They don't have the only suburbs to live in.
Calm Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The average LDS isn't as Utahcentric as you seem to think. Kind of Utahcentric to assume he was saying anything about Utah. 1
Five Solas Posted July 3, 2016 Author Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) On 7/2/2016 at 3:24 PM, Storm Rider said: ... As the city of Seattle has grown in population a few of the older wards have merged. It has also happened in Seattle's sister city of Bellevue, which is much more conservative, but in the last ten years we have seen it have a more liberal influence. ... Between this and what Bernard Gui mentioned about Tacoma area ward consolidations, I'm now realizing my mistake. I had *assumed* LDS ward closures/consolidations were a phenomena within the Seattle city boundaries and that LDS folks were merely moving into the adjacent suburbs. That isn't true. I was wrong. This is a Puget Sound regional story, not a Seattle story. LDS are leaving (or just maybe just quitting) across a much larger geographic area in the Pacific Northwest. Also, I must fess up--I previously understated the impact on the North Seattle Stake. I have since learned the Seattle University First ward dissolved in 2012. There are now only two wards remaining in the LDS Institute across the street from UW on 15th Ave NE, not three as I stated previously. That's 50% of YSA gone in a little over a decade, not 25%. Talk about not reaching/retaining Millennials! This is quite stunning. Please pardon my errors & let my thread continue. To recap the explanations for the LDS retreat thus far-- 1) Cities are increasingly hostile to families/family-centric institutions (favored by smac97, others). Explanation flies in face of increasing number of families/children living in Seattle, but nevertheless keeps getting repeated on the thread by some LDS folks who really seem to like it, for whatever reason. 2) Ideology (favored by Bernard Gui, rodheadlee, others). This merits further exploration. Can LDS really not bear to live in the vicinity of those with "uber-progressive" views? Seattle is good for families, but not "conservative families"? Aren't we all Americans? (Okay, a few of you reading this may not be.) What's really going on here? 3) Economy (I won't attribute this to a single poster, but you can figure it out if you read previous posts closely). This one requires some sensitivity, because I wouldn't suggest there's something inherent about LDS that prevents them from competing for housing in Seattle (and surrounding areas). Plenty of other groups can muster the means to live here, including, as Downtown Cornerstone Church (and many others) demonstrate, Evangelical Christians. IMO, LDS can too--if they want to. Nonetheless, the economics of city living vis-a-vis LDS should be explored further, since it's been brought up. Carry on. Please! --Erik PS. A WWII era B-25 just flew over my house (yes, I'm sitting outside on my back-yard deck again)! Nothing like the sound radial piston engines. All kinds of cool things down at Boeing Field this summer... :0) Edited July 3, 2016 by Five Solas can't type
Calm Posted July 4, 2016 Posted July 4, 2016 When we were in Kansas, we lived just north of an airfield where among other things, iirc, B-1s and B-2s were kept and pilots learned to fly them. Astonishing getting hit in the early hours of the morning with the sound of afterburners kicking in or whatever made those noises. Wichita was a great place for aircraft enthusiasts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McConnell_Air_Force_Base Ps: my husband thinks they were just having a debate on whether to have the B-2s there. It was a huge issue for the community. But he remembers the B-1s making their presence known. It was so cool to see them landing at night from the backside.
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