Rainbow flags, urban centers, and LDS

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

 

And it's no less interesting that the LDS Church is increasingly secretive about its membership statistics--to the point of requiring the University of Utah to enter into a legally binding non-disclosure agreement.  But no doubt it's the critics' fault for making the LDS leadership all paranoid like that...

From the linked article -

"when asked, the LDS Church gave The Tribune what a spokesman said was the exact set of numbers it gave to the U."

[Five Solas]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

From the linked article -

"when asked, the LDS Church gave The Tribune what a spokesman said was the exact set of numbers it gave to the U."

Which the University of Utah cannot confirm, because of the non-disclosure agreement required by the LDS Church to obtain membership data.  Now I'm not saying they're lying or anything along those lines.  But I am saying that the NDA reeks of leadership paranoia...

This probably merits its own thread.

--Erik

________________________________________________________

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.

--Joseph Heller, Catch-22

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Which the University of Utah cannot confirm, because of the non-disclosure agreement required by the LDS Church to obtain membership data.  Now I'm not saying they're lying or anything along those lines.  But I am saying that the NDA reeks of leadership paranoia...

This probably merits its own thread.

--Erik

________________________________________________________

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.

--Joseph Heller, Catch-22

I guess you're welcome to assume what you want.

Edited June 26, 2017 by ksfisher
sp

[MorningStar]

Seattle is way too expensive.  A friend just posted today the difference between Omaha and Seattle.  $260,000 buys a brochure like home in Omaha, but basically a shack in Seattle.  And condo dues are obscene too.  We tend to have more children than the average still, so living in the city is not realistic for most people unless they're stinking rich. 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Which the University of Utah cannot confirm, because of the non-disclosure agreement required by the LDS Church to obtain membership data.  Now I'm not saying they're lying or anything along those lines.  But I am saying that the NDA reeks of leadership paranoia...

 

The leadership is so paranoid that it willingly hands over membership data to a metropolitan daily newspaper, one that, whatever else you can say about it, cannot be mistaken as having customarily been Mormonism-friendly over the years. Who's really being paranoid here?

Edited June 26, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Housing prices have a lot to do with it.  It's getting more difficult for families with children to find affordable housing in Salt Lake County.

Three of my sons work in Seattle, but cannot afford to buy a home there. It's hard to raise a family in a two-bedroom flat and get the kids to Mutual on a city bus. They live in Federal Way, Issaquah, and Orting. We lived in Tacoma when they were young, but moved to Puyallup because of the awful commute, the crime, and poor schools. Seattle is a great place in which to spend a day and a few bucks if there are any left over after paying for parking, but I always give a huge sigh of relief as I see the city diminishing in the rearview mirror while driving south on I5 and I405. That is, if the traffic is actually moving. Took me three and a half hours to get from Greenlake to Puyallup (about forty miles) a while back, and the city, county, and state have no interest in or intention to improve those conditions. As for Mormons not living there, no biggy. Took my visiting nephew to lunch in Ballard and had to walk down sidewalks fouled with human excrement, used needles and other things, and discarded bedding and clothes next to buildings and in the green spaces. Given the horrendous traffic, the palpable intolerance, and the social and political insanity one has to endure there, it isn't worth the hassle. After all, one can have the usufruct of all the big city thingies and still have a beautiful and affordable place to live with better schools not far away, and with plenty of Mormons and Evangelicals to keep one happy. And keep your car. What's not to like?

 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Seattle is way too expensive.  A friend just posted today the difference between Omaha and Seattle.  $260,000 buys a brochure like home in Omaha, but basically a shack in Seattle.  And condo dues are obscene too.  We tend to have more children than the average still, so living in the city is not realistic for most people unless they're stinking rich. 

The lack of LDS in Seattle proper is really that simple.

[MorningStar]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Three of my sons work in Seattle, but cannot afford to buy a home there. It's hard to raise a family in a two-bedroom flat. They live in Federal Way, Issaquah, and Orting. We lived in Tacoma when they were young, but moved to Puyallup because of the awful commute, the crime, and poor schools. Seattle is a great place in which to spend a day and a few bucks if there are any left over after paying for parking, but I always give a huge sigh of relief as we I the city diminishing in the rearview mirror while driving south on I5 and I405. That is, if the traffic is actually moving. Took me three and a half hours to get from Greenlake to Puyallup (about forty miles) a while back, and the city, county, and state have no interest in or intention to improve those conditions. As for Mormons not living there, no biggy. Took my visiting nephew to lunch in Ballard and had to walk down sidewalks with homeless excrement next to buildings and in green spaces. Given the horrendous traffic, the palpable intolerance, and the social and political insanity one has to endure there, it isn't worth the hassle. After all, one can have the usufruct of all the big city thingies and still have a beautiful and affordable place to live with better schools not far away, and with plenty of Mormons and Evangelicals to keep one happy. And keep your car. What's not to like?

 

Who doesn't want to live by homeless excrement?    I perform in Seattle 6 times a year and I swear the longest part of my drive is once I'm in Seattle.  It's very frustrating.  

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Who doesn't want to live by homeless excrement?    I perform in Seattle 6 times a year and I swear the longest part of my drive is once I'm in Seattle.  It's very frustrating.  

Indeed. It's city policy. And the city,county,state policy is not to improve traffic but to exacerbate it as the way to force everyone onto mass transit.

Perform? Elaborate, please.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

29 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Who doesn't want to live by homeless excrement?    I perform in Seattle 6 times a year and I swear the longest part of my drive is once I'm in Seattle.  It's very frustrating.  

 

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. It's city policy. And the city,county,state policy is not to improve traffic but to exacerbate it as the way to force everyone onto mass transit.

Perform? Elaborate, please.

Yes, please do!

[Five Solas]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The leadership is so paranoid that it willingly hands over membership data to a metropolitan daily newspaper, one that, whatever else you can say it about it, cannot be mistaken as having customarily been Mormonism-friendly over the years. Who's really being paranoid here?

The fact of the NDA is unaltered.  That U of U, a publicly funded institution, cannot confirm the Tribune's data is unchanged.  But really I'm the one who's being paranoid for calling out the problem & seeing the implication.  Yes, I'm the real problem here--me and my warped perspective.   

;0) 

Whatever else may be said, you're certainly an audacious defender of LDS leadership, Scott. 

--Erik

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Five Solas said:

The fact of the NDA is unaltered.  That U of U, a publicly funded institution, cannot confirm the Tribune's data is unchanged.  But really I'm the one who's being paranoid for calling out the problem & seeing the implication.  Yes, I'm the real problem here--me and my warped perspective.   

;0) 

Whatever else may be said, you're certainly an audacious defender of LDS leadership, Scott. 

--Erik

Of all the people on this board, Scott is the one closest to LDS leaders and a person highly qualified to comment on their characters and actions. He interacts with them every day and witnesses events, conferences, meetings, press briefings, etc., involving them. He writes about them as a professional journalist, whereas most of us hear them talk two or three times

a year, read their words, and gossip about them on discussion boards.

For this and other reasons, Scott is an invaluable participant. We are fortunate to have him here.  He's one reason I remain.

I have had  personal interactions with a few General Authorities and extended relationships with some of their family members. While I realize they are not infallible, I believe they are men of great faith and good will. I have observed nothing nefarious or not worthy of defending. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

The fact of the NDA is unaltered.  That U of U, a publicly funded institution, cannot confirm the Tribune's data is unchanged. 

--Erik

Unless it pertains to a state-controlled church, as those that exist in some countries in Europe, no outside entity is entitled, legally or otherwise, to dictate to a religious organization what it must do with its internal information, especially not a "publicly funded institution," which would be in violation of the First Amendment if it endeavored to do so.
 

Quote

 

But really I'm the one who's being paranoid for calling out the problem & seeing the implication.  Yes, I'm the real problem here--me and my warped perspective.   

Whatever else may be said, you're certainly an audacious defender of LDS leadership, Scott. 

 

 

I'll take that as a compliment, intended or not and backhanded though it may be.

 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

The fact of the NDA is unaltered.  That U of U, a publicly funded institution, cannot confirm the Tribune's data is unchanged.  But really I'm the one who's being paranoid for calling out the problem & seeing the implication.  Yes, I'm the real problem here--me and my warped perspective.

It's probably a boilerplate NDA they use for all their data releases. There are good reasons for that since some of the data may include private information. I'm sure they're doing it the same reason most corporations do that. Because a lawyer told them they had to in order to avoid lawsuits. (Here just going by what I've heard researchers say on podcasts like Econtalk about corporate data samples they get and why they can't publish the raw data)

Edited June 26, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Kenngo1969]

Bernard Gui:

I take nationwide inbound calls (as well as calls from people leaving the U.S. to go to Canada).  Most places I can pronounce reasonably well (except on the odd call from customers traveling to Quebec ).  Puyallup is an exception: I have no clue, Hermano. ¡Ayúdame!.  One doesn't pronounce the "y," yet there's this pronounced-but-not-written "w" lurking in there someplace, is that right?  Poo-WALL-up?  

P.S.: I just read up on the "human excrement" problem in Seattle.  Please don't read anything other than a request for pronunciation help into my reference to the city of Poo-WALL-up (though poo really can pack a wallop; thank goodness for modern sanitation)!  

Edited June 26, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Bernard Gui:

I take nationwide inbound calls (as well as calls from people leaving the U.S. to go to Canada).  Most places I can pronounce reasonably well (except on the odd call from customers traveling to Quebec ).  Puyallup is an exception: I have no clue, Hermano. ¡Ayúdame!.  One doesn't pronounce the "y," yet there's this pronounced-but-not-written "w" lurking in there someplace, is that right?  Poo-WALL-up?  

P.S.: I just read up on the "human excrement" problem in Seattle.  Please don't read anything other than a request for pronunciation help into my reference to the city of Poo-WALL-up (though poo really can pack a wallop; thank goodness for modern sanitation)!  

I have learned something today. Thank you, Kenngo!

 

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

The fact of the NDA is unaltered.  That U of U, a publicly funded institution, cannot confirm the Tribune's data is unchanged.  But really I'm the one who's being paranoid for calling out the problem & seeing the implication.  Yes, I'm the real problem here--me and my warped perspective.   

;0) 

Whatever else may be said, you're certainly an audacious defender of LDS leadership, Scott. 

--Erik

I'm not sure how you can really fault any organization for wishing to maintain control of their own data. 

And how does the University of Utah being a publicly funded institution enter into it?

One thing you may have missed it that the church is providing this information to the state, which the state then uses in planning.  How many millions of dollars would then state need to spend to collect the same information that has been provided to them by the state?  And this is being done by a church which, in your words, "reeks of leadership paranoia."

"Since at least 1940, the LDS Church has provided membership data to the state, which uses those statistics along with IRS figures, school enrollment, health information and building permits to build population estimates."

Edited June 26, 2017 by ksfisher

[USU78]

38 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure how you can really fault any organization for wishing to maintain control of their own data. 

And how does the University of Utah being a publicly funded institution enter into it?

One thing you may have missed it that the church is providing this information to the state, which the state then uses in planning.  How many millions of dollars would then state need to spend to collect the same information that has been provided to them by the state?  And this is being done by a church which, in your words, "reeks of leadership paranoia."

"Since at least 1940, the LDS Church has provided membership data to the state, which uses those statistics along with IRS figures, school enrollment, health information and building permits to build population estimates."

Such fresh air!

[MorningStar]

21 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Yes, please do!

I sing with a symphony and chorus.   

[strappinglad]

Seattle , another example where ideology trumps common sense. ( irony noted ) . Last time I was in Seattle I remember the lovely smell of flowers all along the roadways. Apparently , things have changed smell - wise .

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Bernard Gui:

I take nationwide inbound calls (as well as calls from people leaving the U.S. to go to Canada).  Most places I can pronounce reasonably well (except on the odd call from customers traveling to Quebec ).  Puyallup is an exception: I have no clue, Hermano. ¡Ayúdame!.  One doesn't pronounce the "y," yet there's this pronounced-but-not-written "w" lurking in there someplace, is that right?  Poo-WALL-up?  

P.S.: I just read up on the "human excrement" problem in Seattle.  Please don't read anything other than a request for pronunciation help into my reference to the city of Poo-WALL-up (though poo really can pack a wallop; thank goodness for modern sanitation)!  

No hay problema, cuate.

It's a perpetual pronunciation problem with non-Puget Sounders - a  Local NA tribe.

Pew (as in a church bench )

al (as in the man's name, short for Alan)

up (as in the direction)

Accent on "al"

Pew AL up

Edited June 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, MorningStar said:

I sing with a symphony and chorus.   

Is it, perchance, a symphony and chorus with a sizable Mormon membership?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No hay problema, cuate.

It's a perpetual pronunciation problem with non-Puget Sounders - a  Local NA tribe.

Pew (as in a church bench )

al (as in the man's name, short for Alan)

up (as in the direction)

Accent on "al"

Pew AL up

I will never struggle over pronunciation of that name again!

Of course we have our own challenging place names in Utah. Tooele, located west of Salt Lake Valley, is pronounce too-WILL-uh.

One of our counties is named Sevier County. We pronounce the name as you would the word severe.

When I was a boy growing up in Salt Lake County in the 1960s, there was an annual  telethon on KSL-TV in Salt Lake. Among the visiting celebrity guests for the telethon one year were the King Sisters, a Mormon sister act that achieved nationwide fame and popularity during the big band era of the 1940s. 

One of the King Sisters mispronounced the name of Sevier County, putting an affected French pronunciation on it: "sev-ee-ay." I clearly recall how disgusted my mom was. She knew that the King Sisters were born and reared in Pleasant Grove in central Utah and ought to know how to pronounce the name of Sevier County.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

No hay problema, cuate.

It's a perpetual pronunciation problem with non-Puget Sounders - a  Local NA tribe.

Pew (as in a church bench )

al (as in the man's name, short for Alan)

up (as in the direction)

Accent on "al"

Pew AL up

¡Gracias! ¡Yo sabía yo que no me desanimaría!

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Is it, perchance, a symphony and chorus with a sizable Mormon membership?

 

My son Abogadissimo and I occasionally play with that group. Derailing...........

Edited June 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui