June Ensign - Life After Death

[Broker]

This month's Ensign has an article about life after death that ends with this:

"What will people do in the other kingdoms?

Those in other kingdoms will be angels, which “are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory” (D&C 132:16). They will not be married or have spirit offspring (see D&C 131:1–4; 132:16–17)."

I'm not sure the Church currently teaches this as doctrine, so I was a bit surprised to see it in an Ensign article. I know past Church leaders have made such statements, but current Church leaders seem to be (wisely) staying away from teaching doctrines that are not fully understood. (e.g. "As God once was...." or doctrinal reasons for withholding the priesthood). 

The scriptures cited in the article are about marriage in the Celestial Kingdom, but say nothing directly about couples that may not qualify for the Celestial Kingdom, but have been sealed in the temple (perhaps vicariously).

I find it difficult to accept that Church leaders can constantly, and with increasing volume, teach about the importance of marriage (and not just to Church members, but to all people) on one hand, while on the other hand believing that most of those marriages won't last beyond death because people won't qualify for the Celestial Kingdom. No where have I seen current Church leaders warn people that God will tear their marriages apart unless they join the Church. I think they don't teach that, because it's a doctrine we don't completely understand.

Opinions ?

 

 

[JLHPROF]

My opinion is the scripture.
ONLY those in exaltation (highest of the Celestial Kingdom) will continue in marriage.

No marriage in the Telestial, Terrestrial, or the lowest level of the Celestial.  Exaltation is required for eternal marriage.  Salvation in any other state doesn't allow for marriage.

And that is scriptural.

3 minutes ago, Broker said:

The scriptures cited in the article are about marriage in the Celestial Kingdom, but say nothing directly about couples that may not qualify for the Celestial Kingdom, but have been sealed in the temple (perhaps vicariously).

This statement doesn't make a lot of sense.  If a couple is sealed for eternity and lives up to that sealing the only place they can be IS the Celestial Kingdom.
It is impossible for a marriage sealing that is made eternal to exist in any other Kingdom.

[VideoGameJunkie]

12 minutes ago, Broker said:

This month's Ensign has an article about life after death that ends with this:

"What will people do in the other kingdoms?

Those in other kingdoms will be angels, which “are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory” (D&C 132:16). They will not be married or have spirit offspring (see D&C 131:1–4; 132:16–17)."

I'm not sure the Church currently teaches this as doctrine, so I was a bit surprised to see it in an Ensign article. I know past Church leaders have made such statements, but current Church leaders seem to be (wisely) staying away from teaching doctrines that are not fully understood. (e.g. "As God once was...." or doctrinal reasons for withholding the priesthood). 

The scriptures cited in the article are about marriage in the Celestial Kingdom, but say nothing directly about couples that may not qualify for the Celestial Kingdom, but have been sealed in the temple (perhaps vicariously).

I find it difficult to accept that Church leaders can constantly, and with increasing volume, teach about the importance of marriage (and not just to Church members, but to all people) on one hand, while on the other hand believing that most of those marriages won't last beyond death because people won't qualify for the Celestial Kingdom. No where have I seen current Church leaders warn people that God will tear their marriages apart unless they join the Church. I think they don't teach that, because it's a doctrine we don't completely understand.

Opinions ?

 

 

I believe God is a successful parent and that they'll be more people exalted in the Celestial Kingdom than in the other kingdoms combined.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I believe God is a successful parent and that they'll be more people exalted in the Celestial Kingdom than in the other kingdoms combined.

That is a very interesting concept.  We know what God's work and glory is.  Does that work end with our resurrection to a kingdom of glory?  Scripture would tell us that it doesn't and that the work continues along with progression.

[carbon dioxide]

I think its fair to say that if those who are in the two lower levels of the Celestial Kingdom are not married, why would those who are in lower kingdoms than the Celestial Kingdom have a marriage?  I think the Ensign article is consistent with the teachings of the Church on this matter.  If you have people married in the lower kingdoms and people not being married in the lower levels of the Celestial Kingdom, those individuals might want to drop out of the Celestial glory to have a marriage in the Terrestrial Kingdom if they want a marriage. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I think its fair to say that if those who are in the two lower levels of the Celestial Kingdom are not married, why would those who are in lower kingdoms than the Celestial Kingdom have a marriage?  I think the Ensign article is consistent with the teachings of the Church on this matter.  If you have people married in the lower kingdoms and people not being married in the lower levels of the Celestial Kingdom, those individuals might want to drop out of the Celestial glory to have a marriage in the Terrestrial Kingdom if they want a marriage. 

If Jesus is in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms, I'll be just fine with it!!

[Duncan]

Both sets of my Grandparents i'm fairly confident never ever met missionaries or had much if any opportunity to embrace the true Gospel, they were members of other denominations. I can't imagine though they wouldn't accept the gospel in the next life and be sealed. If they aren't then that is between them and God and i'm neither of those people. 

from Joseph Smith

“… While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.’ [Matthew 5:45.] He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, ‘according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil,’ or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, ‘not according to what they have not, but according to what they have’; those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right [see Genesis 18:25].”  History of the Church, 4:595–96

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Tacenda said:

If Jesus is in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms, I'll be just fine with it!!

Christ visits the Terrestrial (and ministers to them).
Why?  To continue God's work.

It's a missionary thing.  God's work of Celestialization will continue.  To continue to encourage the Terrestrial Kingdom inhabitants to become Celestial in their nature and eventually to regain the opportunity for Celestial law.

There's no escaping it.  Celestial requirements will always be in front of people until they finally accept them.  Else God's work would be frustrated.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

If Jesus is in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms, I'll be just fine with it!!

Jesus will not administer to those in the Telestial.  As to those in the Terrestrial, they will be with Jesus.  What also will be with them is the full knowledge of the premortal existence.  So though they will be in a nice place, they will understand everything they they lost be not obtaining celestial glory and exaltation.  We came to this world to pass the test with an A.  Not get a consolation prize for not passing the test.

[Broker]

If we teach that Terrestrial inhabitants will always have the option of progressing to the Celestial and having their marriages "restored", I can accept that.  We don't teach that, but it may still be true and seems to be in accordance with a loving God.

I've read section 132 over several times. I simply don't see where it teaches that there is no marriage in the Terrestrial Kingdom. From what I remember of witnessing temple marriages (without disclosing anything sacred ?), the couple are not "sealed" together, but they are married. What is "sealed" are certain blessings based on their worthiness as a couple. I think it's possible that couples can be married in the temple, a marriage recognized by the Lord, but not necessarily be worthy of the blessings of a "celestial" marriage.

 

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Both sets of my Grandparents i'm fairly confident never ever met missionaries or had much if any opportunity to embrace the true Gospel, they were members of other denominations. I can't imagine though they wouldn't accept the gospel in the next life and be sealed. If they aren't then that is between them and God and i'm neither of those people. 

from Joseph Smith

“… While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.’ [Matthew 5:45.] He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, ‘according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil,’ or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, ‘not according to what they have not, but according to what they have’; those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right [see Genesis 18:25].”  History of the Church, 4:595–96

I agree with what Joseph says and I think its great.  I also think that perhaps preaching the gospel to people might not be the best thing for a lot of them.  Perhaps leaving them in their current state will be better for them in the long run.  Perhaps being raised in the Church might have turned out to be a curse for those who fail or not faithful.  

[JAHS]

From what I understand, it is doctrine and they do teach it, but they also like to stay optimistic and focus more on the potential that everyone has to have an eternal marriage. Like someone suggested there would be no reason for marriage in the other kingdoms if it's not eternal marriage and they can't continue to procreate. Any marriage contract they had on earth was only valid and useful while they were on earth. However there's nothing that says two married people will not know each other and continue to love each other in the other kingdoms; there would simply no longer be any reason to call them "married".

 

[Jeanne]

i don't believe it.  To separate families even in their struggle to progress is cruel.

[Duncan]

Just now, Jeanne said:

i don't believe it.  To separate families even in their struggle to progress is cruel.

but everyone would be presented with the opportunity though to accept the gospel and everything that pertains to it, if they don't accept it then what can we say? A phrase that runs throughout Jacob 5 is "it grieveth me" God, it seems wants the best for us but if we don't accept it then what more can God do? he can't force people to do things or accept things

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

but everyone would be presented with the opportunity though to accept the gospel and everything that pertains to it, if they don't accept it then what can we say? A phrase that runs throughout Jacob 5 is "it grieveth me" God, it seems wants the best for us but if we don't accept it then what more can God do? he can't force people to do things or accept things

I understand what you are saying..but why wouldn't I get to be with my husband in making those choices?  We wouldn't need to pro-create  but just be together and share the journey? 

[JAHS]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I understand what you are saying..but why wouldn't I get to be with my husband in making those choices?  We wouldn't need to pro-create  but just be together and share the journey? 

Like I said above I'm pretty sure you would not be strangers there in the lower kingdoms, but the marriage contract itself would no longer have any meaning when you are no longer on earth. It would be as if you had only a civil "till death do you part" marriage. 

[Duncan]

13 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I understand what you are saying..but why wouldn't I get to be with my husband in making those choices?  We wouldn't need to pro-create  but just be together and share the journey? 

I don't know your background so I can't speak to it, but I am not the judge of these things!

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I understand what you are saying..but why wouldn't I get to be with my husband in making those choices?  We wouldn't need to pro-create  but just be together and share the journey? 

Maybe that's why Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven?  I believe we will be with loved ones after this life.  If there is a heaven, I believe we'll be with our families...period.  Only the LDS faith seems to separate families. Which goes in the opposite direction of the slogan..."families can be together forever".  I guess the emphasis is on "can", therefore it's not just assumed, like in other faiths.  I believe that's why it's only till death do us part, maybe because of that particular Bible scripture of no marriage in heaven.  

I often wonder if Joseph Smith is not unlike many throughout time that wanted to be a god.  Look at all the movies and video games, and books.  They are doing the same thing.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_based_on_Greco-Roman_mythology  and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythology-based_video_games

 

 

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe that's why Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven?

Except he never said that.

What he said is that people cannot get married after the resurrection.
That's an important difference.
 

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe that's why Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven?  I believe we will be with loved ones after this life.  If there is a heaven, I believe we'll be with our families...period.  Only the LDS faith seems to separate families. Which goes in the opposite direction of the slogan..."families can be together forever".  I guess the emphasis is on "can", therefore it's not just assumed, like in other faiths.  I believe that's why it's only till death do us part, maybe because of that particular Bible scripture of no marriage in heaven.  

I often wonder if Joseph Smith is not unlike many throughout time that wanted to be a god.  Look at all the movies and video games, and books.  They are doing the same thing.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_based_on_Greco-Roman_mythology  and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythology-based_video_games

 

 

Well, other churches believe in Hell and heaven and a seperation of people last I heard it was based on political lines..... Families CAN be together forever not will be. I think ours is trying to keep everyone together through the gospel

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Except he never said that.

What he said is that people cannot get married after the resurrection.
That's an important difference.
 

So I guess the Ensign article is true?  And the people that didn't marry in the temple will be angels?  Am I reading this right?  Are they servants to Gods and Goddesses as Brigham Young states?  

I don't believe that's a biblical definition of angels.

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe that's why Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven?  I believe we will be with loved ones after this life.  If there is a heaven, I believe we'll be with our families...period.  Only the LDS faith seems to separate families. Which goes in the opposite direction of the slogan..."families can be together forever".  I guess the emphasis is on "can", therefore it's not just assumed, like in other faiths.  I believe that's why it's only till death do us part, maybe because of that particular Bible scripture of no marriage in heaven.  

I often wonder if Joseph Smith is not unlike many throughout time that wanted to be a god.  Look at all the movies and video games, and books.  They are doing the same thing.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_based_on_Greco-Roman_mythology  and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythology-based_video_games

 

 

That's not true. I've spoken with Protestants who have said that though we will know each other in heaven our earthly relationships will not exist. Your grandfather won't be your grandfather, he'll just be another brother in heaven like a million others. 

And other churches still believe in the whole "till death do you part" aspect of the marriage covenant, even though it's not popular to mention it during the actual ceremony anymore. 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So I guess the Ensign article is true?  And the people that didn't marry in the temple will be angels?  Am I reading this right?  Are they servants to Gods and Goddesses as Brigham Young states?  

I don't believe that's a biblical definition of angels.

D&C 132:16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

It says what it says and I for one am not prepared to start picking and choosing which scriptures I accept.
And "Angel" just means messenger.  There is no other definition.

But I also believe EVERYONE will have the opportunity to choose before the resurrection deadline.  Follow the law, get the blessing.

Edited June 6, 2016 by JLHPROF

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

i don't believe it.  To separate families even in their struggle to progress is cruel.

If families are separated, it is because they did not follow the rules that God has given.  God does not punish people for the struggles they have.  He does hold them accountable for the decisions they make in their struggles.

[Jeanne]

I am a widow, and ex-mormon.  That puts this theology in a hurtful place for me.  I live life with a longing to be with him again.