June Ensign - Life After Death

[Eek!]

51 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Smac is right.  This is the telestial "world" not the telestial kingdom.

Earth will be the celestial kingdom when glorified.

So the Earth itself will progress... that totally fits with the eternal progression paradigm which I embrace.

I have a question:  How does the Earth go from being a Telestial world to being the Celestial kingdom, if the meanings of "world" and "kingdom", in this context, do not overlap? 

It's starting to sound more like the terms may be synonymous. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Eek!

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, Eek! said:

So the Earth itself will progress... that totally fits with the eternal progression paradigm which I embrace.

I have a question:  How does the Earth go from being a Telestial world to being the Celestial kingdom, if the meanings of "world" and "kingdom", in this context, do not overlap? 

It's starting to sound more like the terms may be synonymous. 

Our belief is that it will essentially be "resurrected".  Remember all these terms are human terms and we do not have the words to really explain them.

D&C 130 says that

Quote

 

 5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

 6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;

 7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like asea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

 8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

 9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130?lang=eng

So like us, the earth will be physically changed as we will be changed when we are resurrected.  We will have a different kind of body and so will the earth.

THAT is the transformation from the "world"- the world in which we live.  The world in which we live will become part of the Kingdom of God and so it is itself a "Kingdom" and not a "world".  Worlds are "worldly" but this will be part of the kingdom of the Lord.

[rodheadlee]

11 hours ago, Gray said:

The subject was spiritual death, though, right? 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/12.16%2C32?lang=eng#15

The church teaches that spiritual death is separation from God. This gets emphasized in missionary discussions, or it used to at least. 

You are not seperated from God In the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms, you are linked to God through the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ, they are part of the Godhead.. If you deny the Holy Spirit then you can no longer be linked to God and thus become a memebr of the Outer Darkness. I suggest you read D&C 76 very close.

[Eek!]

58 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

THAT is the transformation from the "world"- the world in which we live.  The world in which we live will become part of the Kingdom of God and so it is itself a "Kingdom" and not a "world".  Worlds are "worldly" but this will be part of the kingdom of the Lord.

Sorry but I can't buy the argument that "worlds are worldly" as an explanation for why the terms "world" and "kingdom" do not overlap in meaning.   Take a look at these scriptures:

"For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you."  D&C 78:7

"Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world."  D&C 88:2

Does it really sound like these scriptures are referring to a "worldly" place? 

Do you think the term "celestial world" means anything other than "celestial kingdom", or at least something that's a part of the celestial kingdom? 

Is there any good reason to believe that the same relationship does not exist between the terms "telestial world" and "telestial kingdom"? 

 

Edit:  It's 1:47 AM here... you still there, mfbukowski??  Hey whoever goes to bed first loses, you know, at least until tomorrow...

Cheers,

Eek!

Edited June 7, 2016 by Eek!

[mfbukowski]

44 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Sorry but I can't buy the argument that "worlds are worldly" as an explanation for why the terms "world" and "kingdom" do not overlap in meaning.   Take a look at these scriptures:

"For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you."  D&C 78:7

"Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world."  D&C 88:2

Does it really sound like these scriptures are referring to a "worldly" place? 

Do you think the term "celestial world" means anything other than "celestial kingdom", or at least something that's a part of the celestial kingdom? 

Is there any good reason to believe that the same relationship does not exist between the terms "telestial world" and "telestial kingdom"? 

 

Edit:  It's 1:47 AM here... you still there, mfbukowski??  Hey whoever goes to bed first loses, you know, at least until tomorrow...

Cheers,

Eek!

There's no point in arguing semantics. That's the way the words are used. This is the telestial world and it will become the Celestial Kingdom. That is the doctrine of the church. I'm sorry the semantics don't agree with what you think they should be.

[mfbukowski]

I think you have not been to the temple yet. It's clearer after that.

[Gray]

15 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Interesting.  Do you think today in and outside the LDS religion, we perceive God as a more gentle and loving being than even 4 or 5 generations ago?   On the whole, I don't see Joseph as portraying God as extremely vengeful...(other than swords/angels)..but perhaps this idea has changed the thinking of what we notice from one generation to another.

 

I think so. The rhetoric about the nature of God seems different now than even when I was a kid (1980s). That's my perception anyway

[Gray]

8 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

You are not seperated from God In the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms, you are linked to God through the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ, they are part of the Godhead.. If you deny the Holy Spirit then you can no longer be linked to God and thus become a memebr of the Outer Darkness. I suggest you read D&C 76 very close.

No, you're separated from God. This is LDS doctrine 101. Only those in the Celestial Kingdom get to be with the father. 

[Eek!]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

There's no point in arguing semantics. That's the way the words are used.... That is the doctrine of the church.

I think I see where our disconnect lies.

 

You've been telling me what "the doctrine of the church" is, and I've been telling you what I think the scriptures (and Temple, since you brought it up) are actually saying, which necessarily entails taking a close look at the actual language used.   

 

Presumably you've "found it" in the form of church doctrine and so for you the original wording doesn't really matter, whereas I'm a "seeker" and so for me, it does. 

[Gray]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The problem is that ANY characterization of the nature of God, made by a puny human brain HAS to be "metaphorical" so there is no difference between "Metaphorical" and "literal" in this context.

He is our Father.  Beyond that, we have not the words or the concepts to go farther.

I agree that you are mixing the contents of metaphors, and the problem is semantic.  It is similar to a category error or a virtus dormitiva.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_mistake

"Virtus dormitiva" 

 

The thing is when I contemplate how the plan of salvation has been set up, the father metaphor doesn't quite fit. A better metaphor might be nature or natural selection. Of course there are limits to any metaphor. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gray

[smac97]

22 minutes ago, Eek! said:

I think I see where our disconnect lies.

 

You've been telling me what "the doctrine of the church" is, and I've been telling you what I think the scriptures (and Temple, since you brought it up) are actually saying, which necessarily entails taking a close look at the actual language used.   

 

Presumably you've "found it" in the form of church doctrine and so for you the original wording doesn't really matter, whereas I'm a "seeker" and so for me, it does. 

On this point I don't think there is tension between the Scriptures and the doctrines of the Church.  Moreover, we are told in scripture that "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."  You aren't the first person to think you have an understanding of what "the scriptures ... are actually saying" that is superior to the cumulative knowledge and wisdom of the prophets and apostles.  You won't be the last.  I wish you well in your study efforts.  For me, I have found that the cumulative counsel we have received from the Brethren, past and present, has done quite a good job at helping me understand what The Scriptures 'are actually saying."  For me, I give substantial deference to the Brethren and the role they play in the Restored Gospel and the church that houses it, which role is defined in The Scriptures.  This Encyclopedia of Mormonism article sums things up well:

Quote

An "apostle" is an ordained leader in the Melchizedek Priesthood in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Apostles are chosen through inspiration by the president of the church, sustained by the general membership of the Church, and ordained by the First Presidency and the quorum of the Twelve apostles by the laying on of hands.
...
In addition to serving as witnesses of Jesus Christ to all the world (D&C 107:23), as Jesus' apostles did, members of the current Quorum of the Twelve Apostles hold the keys of the priesthood-that is, the rights of presidency (D&C 107:35; cf. 124:128). Of their priesthood authority, President Brigham Young said, "The keys of the eternal Priesthood, which is after the order of the Son of God, are comprehended by being an Apostle. All the Priesthood, all the keys, all the gifts, all the endowments, and everything preparatory to entering into the presence of the Father and of the Son, are in, composed of, circumscribed by, or I might say incorporated within the circumference of, the Apostleship" (JD 1:134-35). As a priesthood quorum, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is next in authority to the Quorum of the First Presidency (D&C 107:24).
...
In the New Testament, an apostle (from Greek apostellein, to send forth [as a representative or agent]) was a divinely chosen envoy (Mark 3:14; John 15:16; Acts 1:21-26) who was a witness to Christ's resurrection and carried a missionary obligation to testify to it.
...
Modern revelation adds further information. The apostolic office and authority were restored to the Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by Peter, James, and John, thus underscoring the continuing significance of this office in the Church (D&C 27:12; see also Melchizedek Priesthood: Restoration of Melchizedek Priesthood). As early as June 1829, nearly a year before the Church was organized, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, later joined by Martin Harris, were instructed concerning the kinds of men to be chosen as apostles and were commissioned to select the first Twelve in the modern era (D&C 18:26-38). This commission was carried out on February 14-15, 1835, when Cowdery, Whitmer, and Harris selected twelve men to be apostles and ordained the nine who were present (HC 2:186-98).

I am not saying that the Brethren are infallible in terms of interpreting scripture, but I don't think we can glibly disregard the counsel from the Brethren, either.  As Elder Anderson recently put it: "The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find."  This is why I think it is a bit . . . untoward for an individual to juxtapose the teachings/doctrines of the Church as being distinct from "{what} the scriptures {and the Temple} are actually saying."  I suppose it's theoretically possible for this to happen, but I think it is far more likely that the Brethren are cumulatively correct in their teaching of the scriptures.

In any event, this particularly issue - the conflating of of the concepts of this world being in a "telestial" state with the "Telestial Kingdom" referenced in Scripture - does not even seem like a close call.  They are not the same thing.  None of us on this earth live in the "Telestial Kingdom."

Thanks,

-Smac

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

No, you're separated from God. This is LDS doctrine 101. Only those in the Celestial Kingdom get to be with the father. 

Correct.
Except the Father is not now nor will in the future be the only "God" in existence.

[Gray]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Correct.
Except the Father is not now nor will in the future be the only "God" in existence.

Right, those in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom also become gods.

In any case, can we all agree that only those in the Celestial Kingdom will be with the Father?

 

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

Right, those in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom also become gods.

In any case, can we all agree that only those in the Celestial Kingdom will be with the Father?

 

Yes, of course.
But that doesn't mean those in lower Kingdoms are shut out of the presence of "God".

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes, of course.
But that doesn't mean those in lower Kingdoms are shut out of the presence of "God".

Is the Holy Ghost "God"?

I mean, we're technically experiencing spiritual death right now, as we are separated from God. Despite the presence of the Holy Ghost. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gray

[rodheadlee]

12 minutes ago, Gray said:

Is the Holy Ghost "God"?

I mean, we're technically experiencing spiritual death right now, as we are separated from God. Despite the presence of the Holy Ghost. 

Hmm, speak for yourself. I'm connected to God through the Holy Ghost. He speaks to me, I need only to listen.

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, Gray said:

Is the Holy Ghost "God"?

I mean, we're technically experiencing spiritual death right now, as we are separated from God. Despite the presence of the Holy Ghost. 

I don't consider myself spiritually dead.  Do you?

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

No, you're separated from God. This is LDS doctrine 101. Only those in the Celestial Kingdom get to be with the father. 

LDS 101 https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead?lang=eng The Holy Ghost is part of the Godhead. You may not have the presence of the Father but you are not totally cutoff unless you are in the Outer Darkness.

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't consider myself spiritually dead.  Do you?

No, and I don't consider myself separate from the presence of God (nor do I think that's even possible). Nevertheless:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

Quote

When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. In this state, “they would have had no children” (2 Nephi 2:23). There was no death. They had physical life because their spirits were housed in physical bodies made from the dust of the earth (see Moses 6:59; Abraham 5:7). They had spiritual life because they were in the presence of God. They had not yet made a choice between good and evil.

Quote

Because of their transgression, Adam and Eve also suffered spiritual death. This meant they and their children could not walk and talk face to face with God. Adam and Eve and their children were separated from God both physically and spiritually.

Spiritual death, then, according to what is taught about it in church, is physical separation from the presence of God. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gray

[Gray]

10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Hmm, speak for yourself. I'm connected to God through the Holy Ghost. He speaks to me, I need only to listen.

I'm merely communicating the church's teachings on this subject. I'm a little surprised that so many don't seem familiar with it. But I suppose we all pick up different things in church. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gray

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

LDS 101 https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead?lang=eng The Holy Ghost is part of the Godhead. You may not have the presence of the Father but you are not totally cutoff unless you are in the Outer Darkness.

I don't think you'll find any current LDS source saying that the Holy Ghost is god. But it's really not relevant. Spiritual death means physical separation from the presence of the Father. 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

Quote

When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. In this state, “they would have had no children” (2 Nephi 2:23). There was no death. They had physical life because their spirits were housed in physical bodies made from the dust of the earth (see Moses 6:59; Abraham 5:7). They had spiritual life because they were in the presence of God. They had not yet made a choice between good and evil.

Quote

Because of their transgression, Adam and Eve also suffered spiritual death. This meant they and their children could not walk and talk face to face with God. Adam and Eve and their children were separated from God both physically and spiritually.

Spiritual death, then, according to what is taught about it in church, is physical separation from the presence of God - or specifically God the Father, as that is who they had been interacting with in the garden. They were never cut off from the Holy Ghost. Nevertheless, they were considered to have suffered spiritual death. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Gray

[JLHPROF]

20 minutes ago, Gray said:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng
Because of their transgression, Adam and Eve also suffered spiritual death. This meant they and their children could not walk and talk face to face with God. Adam and Eve and their children were separated from God both physically and spiritually.

Spiritual death, then, according to what is taught about it in church, is physical separation from the presence of God. 

And once again you are making the assumption that "God" refers only to our Heavenly Father.
Christ by virtue of his sacrifice according to the BOM will be our new Heavenly Father in the world to come and we are told he will give his presence to the Terrestrial Kingdom. 
Only perdition suffer the 2nd death (death of the Spirit).  Telestial and Terrestrial will not suffer spiritual death (at least, not completely).

(And of course I don't even believe that the being Adam and Eve walked and talked with was our Heavenly Father, but rather a different being.)

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And once again you are making the assumption that "God" refers only to our Heavenly Father.
Christ by virtue of his sacrifice according to the BOM will be our new Heavenly Father in the world to come and we are told he will give his presence to the Terrestrial Kingdom. 
Only perdition suffer the 2nd death (death of the Spirit).  Telestial and Terrestrial will not suffer spiritual death (at least, not completely).

(And of course I don't even believe that the being Adam and Eve walked and talked with was our Heavenly Father, but rather a different being.)

Are you referring to the Adam God thing?

I don't fault you for having your own interpretation of these doctrines. I'm just laying out the doctrine as it is taught by the LDS church, which means that everyone in the Telestial Kingdom at least will suffer eternal spiritual death. Probably that counts for the Terrestrial as well. 

 

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

Are you referring to the Adam God thing?

I don't fault you for having your own interpretation of these doctrines. I'm just laying out the doctrine as it is taught by the LDS church, which means that everyone in the Telestial Kingdom at least will suffer eternal spiritual death. Probably that counts for the Terrestrial as well. 

 

Even leaving my Adam-God leanings aside, that still isn't a scriptural understanding of spiritual death.

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, Gray said:

I don't think you'll find any current LDS source saying that the Holy Ghost is god. But it's really not relevant. Spiritual death means physical separation from the presence of the Father. 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/god-godhead

Current LDS source:

"

God the Holy Ghost

The Holy Ghost is also a God and is called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, and the Spirit of God, among other similar names and titles. With the aid of the Holy Ghost, man can know the will of God the Father and know that Jesus is the Christ (1 Cor. 12:3)."

We are reborn spiritually when we are baptized.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/man-new-spiritually-reborn?lang=eng