Ahab Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 3 minutes ago, Calm said: Or another shorter way of saying the above, judgment will not be based on what we did, but who we are...not the how or what of our chosen behaviours, but the why. If one does not believe there is any nature that wouldn't change in a human given enough time, it may be hard to see a "final judgment" as just or merciful, but it seems to me even in our limited mortal perspective we grasp that part of us is fundamental to our being...though we probably too often attributed that quality to aspects that could be changed if we allowed ourselves to be open to the idea (especially since the Atonement is available to us) to make excuses for our current behaviour. I like what is said or asked about gift giving and receiving in a D&C section, asking what good it does to give a gift to someone who doesn't receive it. They neither rejoice in the gift nor the one who is offering it, so what good is that gift to them (by their own assessment)? The glory of God is intelligence and his glory/intelligence is the greatest gift he can give us. With it we can make the most glorious/intelligent choices, both now and in the future, and yet we can also refuse to accept it or limit how much of it we will accept, which usually results in us making some stupid choices over and above the stupid choice to refuse to accept it. All we need to do is accept the gift(s) he offers to us, along with whatever it takes for us to get as many gifts as we can from him. 1
carbon dioxide Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: It is apparently not so set in stone as I had supposed. I read Mormon Doctrine as a youth, perhaps that's where I got the impression that it was settled doctrine: http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/Progression_between_kingdoms A literal reading of certain passages of scripture seems to suggest no progression. But then again, a literal reading of other passages suggests that people who don't embrace Mormonism can never go to the Celestial Kingdom, even if they embrace it after death. So who knows? If there is progression between kingdoms, than it really does not matter where one is resurrected to since they will not remain there. I guess eventually everyone will make it back to the Celestial Kingdom and the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms will have to close their doors. 2
Calm Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Interesting link. All the quotes AGAINST progression between/of kingdoms. Then the statement that there is no official Church position. Why not include the statements FOR progression too? Come on Fairmormon. Play fair. If we are missing relevant quotes, it would be great for you to bring the ones we are missing to the attention of the wiki editor. It is more likely a mistake they were left out than intentional since there are members who favour both positions. 2
JLHPROF Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 Just now, carbon dioxide said: If there is progression between kingdoms, than it really does not matter where one is resurrected to since they will not remain there. I guess eventually everyone will make it back to the Celestial Kingdom and the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms will have to close their doors. Which is why I lean more towards progression OF kingdoms. Those in the Terrestrial will never again go where God is in the Celestial, but their Terrestrial Kingdom may one day become Celestialized, just as this Telestial earth will one day become Celestial. And the Celestial Kingdom will have moved on. No end to progression. I think this far more likely than progression BETWEEN kingdoms. Progression of Kingdoms is scriptural and in evidence.
JLHPROF Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 1 minute ago, Calm said: If we are missing relevant quotes, it would be great for you to bring the ones we are missing to the attention of the wiki editor. It is more likely a mistake they were left out than intentional since there are members who favour both positions. No idea how to do that, but I can certainly send a collection of quotes somewhere when I have a few minutes. Brigham Young being one of the bigger proponents of course - that's what led to McConkie's heresy discourse on the subject.
Ahab Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Interesting link. All the quotes AGAINST progression between/of kingdoms. Then the statement that there is no official Church position. Why not include the statements FOR progression too? Come on Fairmormon. Play fair. As I said, all it takes is common sense to see and understand why sone people don't receive as much intelligence/glory of God as some other people who receive more of it. You are familiar with our Lord saying, through Joseph, that the glory of God is intelligence... aren't you? And everything else our Lord has inspired others to write in our canon? What are you waiting for? Someone to smack you over the head with all of this?
JLHPROF Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 1 minute ago, Ahab said: As I said, all it takes is common sense to see and understand why sone people don't receive as much intelligence/glory of God as some other people who receive more of it. You are familiar with our Lord saying, through Joseph, that the glory of God is intelligence... aren't you? And everything else our Lord has inspired others to write in our canon? What are you waiting for? Someone to smack you over the head with all of this? Umm...pretty sure we are on the same doctrinal side here. Not sure why you are attempting to debate me when we agree.
Eek! Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 15 minutes ago, smac97 said: I am open to the possibility of inter-kingdom progression. I suppose it could it could even be said that I am favorably disposed toward it. But we lack light and knowledge about it, so I have it on a shelf in my brain. I peruse it occasionally, but that's about as far as I am willing to go. Thanks, -Smac May I humbly suggest that you don't necessarily have to wait for the Brethren to speak on the subject. You been given the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and God is no respecter of persons. To paraphrase: If any of you lack light and knowledge, let him ask of God, who gives it freely and without upbraiding the asker, and it will be given to him. Or put it to the Alma 32 test: Plant the idea in your heart, do not kill it with unbelief, and see whether it grows or not. See whether it begins to enlarge your soul, enlighten your understanding, and become delicious to you. 1
Ahab Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 5 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: If there is progression between kingdoms, than it really does not matter where one is resurrected to since they will not remain there. I guess eventually everyone will make it back to the Celestial Kingdom and the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms will have to close their doors. The fact that each of us will be with others who are about as intelligent as we are when we are resurrected should either: 1) scare you, making you want to get more intelligent as quick as you can OR 2) comfort you, knowing you will be with others who are about as intelligent as you are. At the moment I'm still trying to get as much more intelligence as I can get, but I'm not in any big hurry. I mainly just don't want to refuse any intelligence that is offered to me by someone I regard as more intelligent than I currently am.
smac97 Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Eek! said: May I humbly suggest that you don't necessarily have to wait for the Brethren to speak on the subject. I acknowledge that. Quote You been given the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and God is no respecter of persons. To paraphrase: If any of you lack light and knowledge, let him ask of God, who gives it freely and without upbraiding the asker, and it will be given to him. Or put it to the Alma 32 test: Plant the idea in your heart, do not kill it with unbelief, and see whether it grows or not. See whether it begins to enlarge your soul, enlighten your understanding, and become delicious to you. First, I appreciate your thoughts. Second, I do not presently find the concept of progression between kingdoms to be a top priority in terms of topics about which I need to seek further light and knowledge. For now, I am content to let it sit on my brainshelf and peruse it occasionally. Third, to the extent I were to seek and obtain further light and knowledge about a topic over and above what has been publicly taught in the Scriptures and by the Brethren, I would not publish my findings, except perhaps to a very few within my stewardship. Thanks, -Smac Edited June 8, 2016 by smac97 1
Calm Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: No idea how to do that, but I can certainly send a collection of quotes somewhere when I have a few minutes. Brigham Young being one of the bigger proponents of course - that's what led to McConkie's heresy discourse on the subject. Here: http://www.fairmormon.org/contact One of the choices to contact is the wiki manager 1
Eek! Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 58 minutes ago, smac97 said: I acknowledge that. First, I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you Smac. 58 minutes ago, smac97 said: Second, I do not presently find the concept of progression between kingdoms to be a top priority in terms of topics about which I need to seek further light and knowledge. For now, I am content to let it sit on my brainshelf and peruse it occasionally. No problem... it was a biggie for me. 59 minutes ago, smac97 said: Third, to the extent I were to seek and obtain further light and knowledge about a topic over and above what has been publicly taught in the Scriptures and by the Brethren, I would not publish my findings, except perhaps to a very few within my stewardship. Understood and respected. Where possible I try to cite material that's already out there to make a point, rather than citing my own experience as a primary source.
Jeanne Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: If there is progression between kingdoms, than it really does not matter where one is resurrected to since they will not remain there. I guess eventually everyone will make it back to the Celestial Kingdom and the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms will have to close their doors. Well...I like that. It is called eternal progression! 1
Eek! Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: If there is progression between kingdoms, than it really does not matter where one is resurrected to since they will not remain there. I guess eventually everyone will make it back to the Celestial Kingdom and the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms will have to close their doors. Makes total sense to me. I like the idea that even the kids who flunked a few grades still have the prospect of graduating.
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