"Apostasy in Armenia - Sole LDS Stake in Armenia Discontinued"

[Thinking]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

In Russia, we were told there were a number of leaders that left when they were released because they interpreted their callings as part of their status and a release as being equivalent to being fired.  IOW, they were insulted.  In one case, the bishop leaving basically took the whole ward with him and set up his own church, iirc. Different culture,different understanding.  I don't know how that was handled and if realizing this is how it is done worldwide has made a difference to local members.

This concept of serving and then stepping aside so somebody else can serve is unique to mormonism and I can see how it could be misunderstood.

[cdowis]

52 minutes ago, Thinking said:

This concept of serving and then stepping aside so somebody else can serve is unique to mormonism and I can see how it could be misunderstood.

The church has now designated a maximum time period to serve in certain callings.  Back in the day, many bishops and stake presidents served almost indefinitely.

[Thinking]

7 minutes ago, cdowis said:

The church has now designated a maximum time period to serve in certain callings.  Back in the day, many bishops and stake presidents served almost indefinitely.

My Dad served as bishop for 8 years back in the 70's.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, sdc999 said:

I once worked for a company that announced that growth would cease for at least one year and maybe two.  Those that were next in line to be in leadership positions were disgruntled at best.  The CEO of the company was extremely wise.  They had built a great reputation as being the best and knew that expansion, without credible trained representation, would result in a negative outcome.  After taking a two year break on expansion and focusing on training up those they had, they have since doubled in size and continue to have great success.  

There are those who hate classifying the church or any church as a business but it is.  That is why there are professional accounting firms, pr departments, lawyers, etc.   Whomever was in charge of that area in the "rapid growth - low retention" time was a terrible leader.  It's all about the numbers seemed to be the focus.  This has now manifested itself as a failed endeavor.  Yes, the church will start over with the basics and hopefully do a better job this time.  One of the things they really need to do though is to get with these leaders and apologize.  They were put into positions that, as evidenced, they were bound to fail.  This can be detrimental to one's faith and confidence.  Many of the comments from this topic speak of members who leave or become inactive after being released.  A release as a result of being ineffective  could definitely shake someone's faith.      

I agree, but (as with the Third Convention in Mexico) was there no other way?

[Buckeye]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

My 4 year old daughter serves the sacrament every week. No one complains.  There's usually a gaping space between our family and the single sister who sits on the same row and my daughter loves to carry it down and hand it off.  It's really no different than the boys doing it.  It seems silly that we require only little boys who've been given the Aaronic priesthood as being allowed to carry treys from row to row while we all pass it to each other anyway. 

Scripturally speaking, there is no priesthood duty called "passing the sacrament." The best we can find is the deacon (and teacher's) responsibility to "assist" those with higher duties. But, interestingly enough, D/C 20 expressly carves out two things that deacons and teachers cannot assist with: baptisms and administering the sacrament. So whatever "passing" entails, it can't be "administering." And yes, YW passing a tray a long a row is functionally no different than a deacon passing the tray between rows. 

FWIW, my 9-year-old daughter likes to sit at the far end of the bench. One reason is so that she can pass the tray down. But the main reason is so that she is "closer" to her best friend who's family sits on an adjoining pew. Oh, and she also likes to read the sacrament prayers as they're read and point error any errors in the reading to me. The sacrament prayers are some of her favorite verses. 

[The Nehor]

On 5/4/2016 at 2:21 PM, Calm said:

In Russia, we were told there were a number of leaders that left when they were released because they interpreted their callings as part of their status and a release as being equivalent to being fired.  IOW, they were insulted.  In one case, the bishop leaving basically took the whole ward with him and set up his own church, iirc. Different culture,different understanding.  I don't know how that was handled and if realizing this is how it is done worldwide has made a difference to local members.

This happens a lot in many areas even in the United States. On my Mission we got a new Mission President and he released half the Mission District and Zone Leaders in the first transfer. There were elders crying thinking they had failed. The Mission President later gave an address telling those missionaries to basically deal with it and learn that in the Church there are no promotions and demotions and pointed out that releases are normal.

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

When I served in Peru, a woman asked me "If I join your church, can I get welfare?"

This is also a problem.

7 hours ago, ERMD said:

I have a friend who served as mission president in Colombia several years ago.  During a branch sacrament meeting, women were seated at the sacrament table to prepare and bless the sacrament.  He advised the branch president that sisters do not hold the priesthood and cannot perform the ordinance.

Several months later he returned, and sisters again were at the sacrament table.  He asked the branch president why they were there, and he replied, "I gave them the priesthood."

I heard this story over a decade ago about a branch in Wisconsin and also another one in Germany.

On 5/4/2016 at 2:08 PM, RevTestament said:

So doesn't really seem like "apostasy" but that maybe some misappropriation of money going on. Perhaps the church noticed a drop in tithing money so investigated. At this point we can't be certain.

It seems the missionaries are staying mostly mum about it, but since the keys are being placed back with the Mission pres, it seems the above could be the likely scenario. 

Perhaps some joined in the hopes of siphoning money. Corruption is generally bad in Armenia. "The United Nations Development Programme in Armenia views corruption in Armenia as 'a serious challenge to its development.'" 

This is what I suspected when I first saw the story. While corruption can be a problem in the USA (and some other nations) sometimes we forget how pervasive and common it is in many other countries to the point where it is a cultural norm.

[halconero]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

My 4 year old daughter serves the sacrament every week. No one complains.  There's usually a gaping space between our family and the single sister who sits on the same row and my daughter loves to carry it down and hand it off.  It's really no different than the boys doing it.  It seems silly that we require only little boys who've been given the Aaronic priesthood as being allowed to carry treys from row to row while we all pass it to each other anyway. 

There is precedent in sacrifice under the Law of Moses, which was conducted with the Priesthood of Aaron. Of special significance are the sin and burnt offerings, conducted to "make an atonement" between the petitioner and God. The petitioner would bring the sacrifice forward, impute their sin on to the sacrifice by the laying on of hands and then slay the animal themselves. The priests would then gather the blood to sprinkle on the altar (and in certain sacrifices the petitioner) as well as offer it up on the altar. When it was roasted they would then retrieve it from the altar and offer it to the family, who could share it as they like.

Likewise, we impute our broken heart and contrite spirit, the penitent sinner, on the sacrificial Lamb of Christ. The priests (priest, teacher, deacons) applies our sacrifice to the altar and to ourselves, and then offers it up to us for consumption within our families and congregations to do with as we wish. What the priesthood is necessary for is the retrieval of the sacrifice from the altar.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Thinking said:

When I served in Peru, a woman asked me "If I join your church, can I get welfare?"

Absolutely.  It's part of the program to make bad people good, good people better, etc., and it works.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, halconero said:

There is precedent in sacrifice under the Law of Moses, which was conducted with the Priesthood of Aaron. Of special significance are the sin and burnt offerings, conducted to "make an atonement" between the petitioner and God. The petitioner would bring the sacrifice forward, impute their sin on to the sacrifice by the laying on of hands and then slay the animal themselves. The priests would then gather the blood to sprinkle on the altar (and in certain sacrifices the petitioner) as well as offer it up on the altar. When it was roasted they would then retrieve it from the altar and offer it to the family, who could share it as they like.

Likewise, we impute our broken heart and contrite spirit, the penitent sinner, on the sacrificial Lamb of Christ. The priests (priest, teacher, deacons) applies our sacrifice to the altar and to ourselves, and then offers it up to us for consumption within our families and congregations to do with as we wish. What the priesthood is necessary for is the retrieval of the sacrifice from the altar.

Yessir.  And it is all done in remembrance of the Passover Lamb, of which Jesus is the ultimate example as the Lamb of God.  Every LDS Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is served in memory of that great and infinite Atonement Sacrifice, and the Sacrament Table is the altar.

[theplains]

On 04/05/2016 at 2:45 PM, Tacenda said:

Here's one comment I thought that some of our non USA LDS members on this board might feel close to:  "Somewhat myopic LDS leadership has not yet learned that in some parts of the world, you just can't overlay an American yankee religion on a centuries old tradition of Orthodoxy. Armenian culture may be fairly narrow, but very deep. American culture--and with it, Mormonism--is a mile wide and a half inch deep."  

I suspect that when the church starts to translate more of its material (like polygamy) into 
other languages, more will defect.  There is a lot of history (and historial teachings) that 
the present leadership would like people to forget.

Regards,
Jim

[USU78]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

I suspect that when the church starts to translate more of its material (like polygamy) into 
other languages, more will defect.  There is a lot of history (and historial teachings) that 
the present leadership would like people to forget.

Regards,
Jim

You can honestly assert that European converts never heard of Mormon polygyny? Really? 

[JulieM]

11 hours ago, USU78 said:

You can honestly assert that European converts never heard of Mormon polygyny? Really? 

Of course they've heard of polygamy and most probably even associated it with Mormonism.  But, it's getting a closer look and learning the details of how it (and polyandry) was lived by Joseph Smith and others that many members have issues and questions about (in Europe and elsewhere). 

[cinepro]

17 hours ago, USU78 said:

You can honestly assert that European converts never heard of Mormon polygyny? Really? 

There are stories of European emigrants showing up to Utah in the 1800s and being quite surprised at the marital situations they encountered. 

[cinepro]

On 5/5/2016 at 2:02 PM, Buckeye said:

Scripturally speaking, there is no priesthood duty called "passing the sacrament." The best we can find is the deacon (and teacher's) responsibility to "assist" those with higher duties. But, interestingly enough, D/C 20 expressly carves out two things that deacons and teachers cannot assist with: baptisms and administering the sacrament. So whatever "passing" entails, it can't be "administering." And yes, YW passing a tray a long a row is functionally no different than a deacon passing the tray between rows. 

FWIW, my 9-year-old daughter likes to sit at the far end of the bench. One reason is so that she can pass the tray down. But the main reason is so that she is "closer" to her best friend who's family sits on an adjoining pew. Oh, and she also likes to read the sacrament prayers as they're read and point error any errors in the reading to me. The sacrament prayers are some of her favorite verses. 

 

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

 

correct me if I am wrong but didn't girls help set up the sacrament until the 1950's? wait a minute, there was a Belva and Velva in the same group/ hmm, interesting as I have never heard of either of those names before

Edited May 11, 2016 by Duncan

[Atheist Mormon]

On 5/4/2016 at 1:01 PM, ALarson said:

"Apostasy in Armenia - Sole LDS Stake in Armenia Discontinued"

Is this surprise that Missionary work deteriorates everywhere? Especially in Armenia or other Proud Orthodox lands. It was hard/thankless job even in Apostle Paul's time, now that internet/information age arrived the chances are insurmountable. But of course they could not believe me if I told them "your success chances are as good as Titanic's".  However over the years I met/worked with few Armenians at BYU, I'd always tell them the futility of their work, they'd look at me like they somehow knew too but forge ahead....

[consiglieri]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 10:57 AM, jkwilliams said:

My recent trip to Armenia is purely coincidental.

Geez, Elder Holland must be working overtime to create double-digit stakes every week with this kind of stuff going on.

[USU78]

3 hours ago, cinepro said:

There are stories of European emigrants showing up to Utah in the 1800s and being quite surprised at the marital situations they encountered. 

Non sequitur 

[JulieM]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

There are stories of European emigrants showing up to Utah in the 1800s and being quite surprised at the marital situations they encountered. 

Yup and that was when members were actually living polygamy.  It's not surprising many wouldn't know the details today.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Is this surprise that Missionary work deteriorates everywhere? Especially in Armenia or other Proud Orthodox lands. It was hard/thankless job even in Apostle Paul's time, now that internet/information age arrived the chances are insurmountable. But of course they could not believe me if I told them "your success chances are as good as Titanic's".  However over the years I met/worked with few Armenians at BYU, I'd always tell them the futility of their work, they'd look at me like they somehow knew too but forge ahead....

Not at all. In Isaiah's call to labor he was told that basically no one would listen to him. He went ahead and did it anyways. We have a slightly more optimistic picture.

[Atheist Mormon]

Just now, The Nehor said:

Not at all. In Isaiah's call to labor he was told that basically no one would listen to him. He went ahead and did it anyways. We have a slightly more optimistic picture.

Yeah, Imagine Science working that way, nobody would listen to Einstein...                     I don't share your optimistic picture but He can go ahead and try it anyways.....Life is full of trials and failures, I can attest to that.....       

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yeah, Imagine Science working that way, nobody would listen to Einstein...                     I don't share your optimistic picture but He can go ahead and try it anyways.....Life is full of trials and failures, I can attest to that.....       

Accepting the theory of relativity does not usually mean you have to radically alter your life. He has it a little easier.

[rodheadlee]

18 hours ago, cinepro said:

There are stories of European emigrants showing up to Utah in the 1800s and being quite surprised at the marital situations they encountered. 

Well yeah, it wasn't posted on Twitter or Facebook. What did you expect?

[Atheist Mormon]

Just now, The Nehor said:

Accepting the theory of relativity does not usually mean you have to radically alter your life. He has it a little easier.

it exactly did that for scientists en masse who believed in "Ether", Einstein's common sense MCsquare quashed many fantasy dreams, and it was very real. We still reap the benefits of his discovery. As for your example  "Isaiah's call to labor he was told that basically no one would listen to him", of course the people would reject it; imagine those people were living on a meager sustenance, making ends meet barely to feed themselves & their family.... I wouldn't accept it either....

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

it exactly did that for scientists en masse who believed in "Ether", Einstein's common sense MCsquare quashed many fantasy dreams, and it was very real. We still reap the benefits of his discovery. As for your example  "Isaiah's call to labor he was told that basically no one would listen to him", of course the people would reject it; imagine those people were living on a meager sustenance, making ends meet barely to feed themselves & their family.... I wouldn't accept it either....

It changed knowledge but it did not require repentance, fasting, living a strict moral code, or anything of that nature. Ideological shifts are easy by comparison.

If you are trying to suggest that the wealthy and those who have worldly satisfaction and security are more likely to accept the gospel then history disrespectfully disagrees.