People leaving the church: Is it a "patty-cake" lack of conviction (Holland) or "more complicated than that" (Uchtdorf)?

[sdc999]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

What a mess of unadulterated horse crap!  You and Julie pat each other on the back over a story you two have made out of whole cloth.  Not a single, NOT ONE, person has said, or alleged, that Elder Holland is perfect, beyond error, or even that taking this single sentence or two out of context does not make it look poorly worded, a bad choice, call it whatever makes your feel good about yourselves.

You go on ad nauseum over nothing.  It does not appear that any of you whining individual have had the integrity to actually listen to the entire talk.  You remind me, oh heck, it is really not worth it.  Enjoy whatever life you want, but you have lost any respect I once had for you.  It is just too easy to throw you in with Consig and just ignore the lot of you.  

Once in our ward, we as an EQ were given permission by the bishop to have a pancake breakfast and cook (gasp) in the kitchen.  The second councilor arrived and went ballistic to put it mildly.  He went on a rant about not cooking in the kitchen.  Things got really heated amongst a couple of us.    

No, I'm not claiming that momons as a whole believe their prophets are infallible. Of course there may be a small faction that does believe this way.  

After a few days had passed, the second councilor with a better understanding of the situation, pulled each member of the EQ aside (one at a time) and offered an apology.  It was sincere.  

I could be wrong (and people on this board really love to point out when you are wrong) but I cannot recall a time when a prophet has erred (as a man) and come back to offer an apology and a clarification.   

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I understand. Any language that does not validate people in their apostasy is a misrepresentation.

If you think that's what I've said, than you do not understand.  There is a significant difference between validating apostasy and trivializing the struggles of former church members. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I understand. Any language that does not validate people in their apostasy is a misrepresentation.

Do you think President Ucthdorf validated apostasy?

[sunstoned]

11 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I would like to register my objection over Russ getting suspended.

While Russ can be pointed and personal in some of his comments, I believe he brings a valuable perspective to the discussions on this board.

 

I am impressed with your kindness.  

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kIHQ66o4LYo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Edited May 3, 2016 by sunstoned

[flameburns623]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I understand. Any language that does not validate people in their apostasy is a misrepresentation.

Hamba Tuhan:

If I return to the LDS Church, I shall have apostatized from the Roman Catholic Church.

If I do NOT return, I shall remain in apostasy fron the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Whose taffy am I pulling?

With whom am I playing patty-cake?

Or, is there perhaps a less unfortunate way of framing the way in which I am led by the Spirit?

Without, perhaps, affirming me in my apostasy?

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

Hamba Tuhan:

If I return to the LDS Church, I shall have apostatized from the Roman Catholic Church.

If I do NOT return, I shall remain in apostasy fron the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Whose taffy am I pulling?

With whom am I playing patty-cake?

Or, is there perhaps a less unfortunate way of framing the way in which I am led by the Spirit?

Without, perhaps, affirming me in my apostasy?

This!  What about those that leave to go to another faith paradigm?   And those that leave their long time faith to join the LDS church. Are they patty cakes?  Thanks for this post, I tried to put up a scenario similar to this on another thread and here I have your example too now.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Do you think President Ucthdorf validated apostasy?

I don't think any of the apostles validate apostasy.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, flameburns623 said:

If I return to the LDS Church, I shall have apostatized from the Roman Catholic Church.

...

Is there perhaps a less unfortunate way of framing the way in which I am led by the Spirit?

If you return to the LDS Church and you're genuinely at peace with that choice, I strongly suspect you won't much care how any Catholic leaders or members might choose to frame your decision, and I suspect even more strongly that you won't be howling in protest online about how they may choose to represent their understanding of the situation.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[canard78]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

If you return to the LDS Church and you're genuinely at peace with that choice, I strongly suspect you won't much care how any Catholic leaders or members might choose to frame your decision, and I suspect even more strongly that you won't be howling in protest online about how they may choose to represent their understanding of the situation.

But what about the other question?

When a person leaves their previous belief or faith tradition and joins Mormonism, are they patty cake taffy pullers?

[Hamba Tuhan]

22 minutes ago, canard78 said:

When a person leaves their previous belief or faith tradition and joins Mormonism, are they patty cake taffy pullers?

Quite possibly. But then we would need, at minimum, to ask, 'To whom?' and 'Do those people matter?' And that's probably only after we pin down a definition of what a 'patty cake taffy puller' is supposed to be.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[flameburns623]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Quite possibly. But then we would need, at minimum, to ask, 'To whom?' and 'Do those people matter?' And that's probably only after we pin down a definition of what a 'patty cake taffy puller' is supposed to be.

When I resigned my membership, I received a leaflet, purportedly from the First Presidency, which asked me to reconsider my decision. (Edit: See attachment)

I've seen this thing mocked and held to derision on a couple of ex-Mormon sites, but I felt it was a rathet kindly-worded little brief.

Among other things it apologised on behalf of the Church in case anyone had caused hurt; it expressed affection for me, the departing one;  and it spoke of how the Church "needed" me. 

Contrast that to the whole taffy-pulling, patty-cake thing.

Now, my feelings don't bruise easily: believe me, drill sergeants when I served used much stronger language than 'slug' or 'sissy', (or 'taffy-pull'  or 'patty-cake') to keep us motivated and on the right path. 

But that was a different era.

And while we are indeed in the midst of spiritual warfare as deadly as anything I could have faced--still, that war is much more abstract , much further removed from the consciousness of contemporary Saints and sinners. 

Knowing that college students cry out for "safe spaces" against free expression these days . . . I'm wondering if Elder Holland might not have tempered his tough-love language with a bit of the tenderness and concern of that First Presidency tract I mentioned? 

Though, I do also wish the Millennial Generation would grow a bit thicker skin. This PC culture is genuinely suffocating. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by flameburns623
Typos and added attachment

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

But what about the other question?

When a person leaves their previous belief or faith tradition and joins Mormonism, are they patty cake taffy pullers?

They could be, but not necessarily.

 

[flameburns623]

2 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

When I resigned my membership, I received a leaflet, purportedly from the First Presidency, which asked me to reconsider my decision. (Edit: See attachment)

I've seen this thing mocked and held to derision on a couple of ex-Mormon sites, but I felt it was a rathet kindly-worded little brief.

Among other things it apologised on behalf of the Church in case anyone had caused hurt; it expressed affection for me, the departing one;  and it spoke of how the Church "needed" me. 

Contrast that to the whole taffy-pulling, patty-cake thing.

Now, my feelings don't bruise easily: believe me, drill sergeants when I served used much stronger language than 'slug' or 'sissy', (or 'taffy-pull'  or 'patty-cake') to keep us motivated and on the right path. 

But that was a different era.

And while we are indeed in the midst of spiritual warfare as deadly as anything I could have faced--still, that war is much more abstract , much further removed from the consciousness of contemporary Saints and sinners. 

Knowing that college students cry out for "safe spaces" against free expression these days . . . I'm wondering if Elder Holland might not have tempered his tough-love language with a bit of the tenderness and concern of that First Presidency tract I mentioned? 

Though, I do also wish the Millennial Generation would grow a bit thicker skin. This PC culture is genuinely suffocating. 

Oh just to give myself splinters riding the fence:

The sweet, nicely- worded little pamphlet is a lightning rod for ex-Mormon critique.

The boldly worded call to courage by Apostle Jeffrey Holland is a lightning rod for ex-Mormon critique.

While I get the desire for empathy and pastoral consideration . . . Anyone starting to wonder if the Church might not be dog-goned if it don't and dog-goned if it do?

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

Anyone starting to wonder if the Church might not be dog-goned if it don't and dog-goned if it do?

Yep. Which is one reason why I find it hard to get exercised by whatever the outrage du jour is.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[Thinking]

21 hours ago, bluebell said:

Is it really fair to call that a rant though?

I suppose that if you agree with Elder Holland, it doesn't sound like a rant. If you don't agree...

[NEDRA]

Honestly, I think this is just Elder Holland's  personality as he has aged. I also knew him as president of BYU when I was a student there. He was friendly and personable. I worked for him briefly. He and Sister Holland gave me a nice card one Christmas.

Lately there are many accounts of missionaries in the field being visited by President Holland and being spoken to in a passionate manner and even being touched somewhat aggressively. A number of accounts by active, faithful LDS missionaries currently or recently in the field can be found here:

www.nearingkolob.com

Stories can be found elsewhere on the Internet on mission blogs or in letters written home to family that are then posted.

Here are some excerpts:

"Elder Holland, he wanted to shake our hands. So we were only allowed to say our name and where we were from. So row by row we lined up to meet him. I started to get a bit nervous! As I was up in the line I was checking my tie, checking my suit coat, making sure enough white was showing out of my cuffs. I was a bit nervous! So after he got up and said that we had a great group of missionaries!! He interviewed each of us this way!! After a bit of speaking he started getting heated!! He would go up to a few missionaries and would tap them on the cheek. And one sister, he grabbed her and shook her. It was funny!! I learned a lot from him!!"

"So the big news of the week was that Elder Holland came to Wichita and spoke to the entire mission! Just  Elder Holland and us, it was crazy and such a cool experience! He is such a personable and relate able man. He was walking around the front of the chapel and since my companion was in the special mission choir we were on the front row, which was entertaining and cool being so close. He said that his mission meant everything thing to him and everything that has shaped the last “50 years 2 months and 7 days, but who’s counting?” He then lunged forward grabbed my companion by the face, stuck his face right in hers and said passionately “Are YOU COUNTING?!” “NO!” She was so red in the face and Sister Bell said my expression as this was happening was quite entertaining.  I was squashed right next to my companion on a very full bench. There was so much that was shared in that meeting that I wish I had the time to write, but sadly we are low on time."

"President informed us that Elder Holland received specific information about some missionaries who were being less than obedient, he received specific names that he then proceeded to give to President Harbertson. Insane right hahah. President had interviews with all those missionaries after the conference. (dont worry i wasnt one of them) And yes Elder Holland did literally smack some people in the face and strangle them during the whole mission meeting. It was super cool!"

 

 

it seems lately in the few instances I've heard about where Elder Holland is being very passionate he's talking to younger and/or unmarried people. Maybe he feels this group is the most vulnerable and maybe this group reminds him of the young missionaries.

 

edited to fix url 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by NEDRA
Fixed typo

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, flameburns623 said:

Oh just to give myself splinters riding the fence:

The sweet, nicely- worded little pamphlet is a lightning rod for ex-Mormon critique.

The boldly worded call to courage by Apostle Jeffrey Holland is a lightning rod for ex-Mormon critique.

While I get the desire for empathy and pastoral consideration . . . Anyone starting to wonder if the Church might not be dog-goned if it don't and dog-goned if it do?

We have a subset of people that have an agenda, a rationale, for making decisions.  They seek out with a fine toothed comb anything that builds their agenda so that they can feel comfortable for leaving the Church of Jesus Christ.  We have spent 17 pages on a 45 minute talk that has been completely reduced down to 110 words that he spoke. They have thrown out 98% of his talk and with laser focus take offense at 100 words.  Why would someone do that?  Because they are desperate to only look for that which supports their agenda.  

It does not matter what he said or what the Church says - it is wrong and they are right.  There is no argument, there is nothing that could be said or done they have made a choice and now want everyone else to validate their choice.  

Faith is a challenge for everyone.  It does not fall out of the sky on your head and viola you are a person of faith.  One's faith is something to built nurtured, protected, and, in a real sense, fought for to maintain.  

I have stated many times before and join a host of other participants on this Board that recognizes that there is truth in all religions.  More importantly, the Church of Jesus Christ is not yet the source of all truth and/or wisdom. We have much to learn from other churches and other true teachings.  Regardless, what the Church is built upon is the Exaltation of all of God's children. 

Apostasy occurs when one is moving from a higher truth to a lower truth.  It does not occur when one is moving in the reverse - from a lower truth to a higher truth.  I qualify this by acknowledging that we each will gravitate to a truth (a kingdom) that is most comfortable to us. In this context, is apostasy "bad"?  I say that it is not, it may be sad, but it is not bad.  It is a natural desire that is the measure of our spirit, our heart.  It would only be a limitation if one is actually more attracted to a high kingdom or truth and yet did not have the courage to follow the path to it.  

Thanks for your comments and sharing your experience. 

[stemelbow]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Quite possibly. But then we would need, at minimum, to ask, 'To whom?' and 'Do those people matter?' And that's probably only after we pin down a definition of what a 'patty cake taffy puller' is supposed to be.

I'm not much fond of the question, "do those people matter?"  Everyone matters and should be treated as such.

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, NEDRA said:

Honestly, I think this is just Elder Holland's  personality as he has aged. I also knew him as president of BYU when I was a student there. He was friendly and personable. I worked for him briefly. He and Sister Holland gave me a nice card one Christmas.

Lately there are many accounts of missionaries in the field being visited by President Holland and being spoken to in a passionate manner and even being touched somewhat aggressively. A number of accounts by active, faithful LDS missionaries currently or recently in the field can be found here:

 

www.nearingkiolob.com

Stories can be found elsewhere on the Internet on mission blogs or in letters written home to family that are then posted.

Here are some excerpts:

"Elder Holland, he wanted to shake our hands. So we were only allowed to say our name and where we were from. So row by row we lined up to meet him. I started to get a bit nervous! As I was up in the line I was checking my tie, checking my suit coat, making sure enough white was showing out of my cuffs. I was a bit nervous! So after he got up and said that we had a great group of missionaries!! He interviewed each of us this way!! After a bit of speaking he started getting heated!! He would go up to a few missionaries and would tap them on the cheek. And one sister, he grabbed her and shook her. It was funny!! I learned a lot from him!!"

"So the big news of the week was that Elder Holland came to Wichita and spoke to the entire mission! Just  Elder Holland and us, it was crazy and such a cool experience! He is such a personable and relate able man. He was walking around the front of the chapel and since my companion was in the special mission choir we were on the front row, which was entertaining and cool being so close. He said that his mission meant everything thing to him and everything that has shaped the last “50 years 2 months and 7 days, but who’s counting?” He then lunged forward grabbed my companion by the face, stuck his face right in hers and said passionately “Are YOU COUNTING?!” “NO!” She was so red in the face and Sister Bell said my expression as this was happening was quite entertaining.  I was squashed right next to my companion on a very full bench. There was so much that was shared in that meeting that I wish I had the time to write, but sadly we are low on time."

"President informed us that Elder Holland received specific information about some missionaries who were being less than obedient, he received specific names that he then proceeded to give to President Harbertson. Insane right hahah. President had interviews with all those missionaries after the conference. (dont worry i wasnt one of them) And yes Elder Holland did literally smack some people in the face and strangle them during the whole mission meeting. It was super cool!"

 

 

it seems lately in the few instances I've heard about where Elder Holland is being very passionate he's talking to younger and/or unmarried people. Maybe he feels this group is the most vulnerable and maybe this group reminds him of the young missionaries.

Those are interesting to read through. (By the way, your link doesn't work as I think you've added a letter to "Kolob").

There is no doubt that Elder Holland is passionate.  He's given some very forceful talks in General Conference as well.  I will never forget his talk on the Book of Mormon.

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not much fond of the question, "do those people matter?"  Everyone matters and should be treated as such.

Well, perhaps I should have written, 'Do the opinions/judgements of those people matter?', then.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Well, perhaps I should have written, 'Do the opinions/judgements of those people matter?', then.

Sure they matter, and should be treated as such.  We should be far more willing to take into account each person's opinions and judgments.  Even if we decide against their opinion/judgments doesn't mean we need to see their opinions as not mattering.  We all disagree about something but that doesn't mean anyone should be treated like their opinion doesn't matter. 

[Gray]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't think any of the apostles validate apostasy.

How would you characterize the difference between President Uchtdorf's and Elder Holland's approaches? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

How would you characterize the difference between President Uchtdorf's and Elder Holland's approaches? 

Do you somehow have a clear vision of all the various ways that Pres Uchtdorf has approached the topic of apostasy -- say, in General Conference, in stake conferences, in leadership training meetings, one-on-one with priesthood leaders who try to help those who struggle, one-on-one with those who genuinely struggle but wish to preserve their faith, one-on-one with those who pretend to be struggling but really just want to take the Church down, etc. -- and all of the cumulative ways that Elder Holland has done so, or do you really mean just to try to contrast two cherry-picked 'approaches' for rhetorical effect?

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

We all disagree about something but that doesn't mean anyone should be treated like their opinion doesn't matter. 

If people say things about me that I know with surety aren't true, then I don't let their opinions matter.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

If people say things about me that I know with surety aren't true, then I don't let their opinions matter.

Well it's probably wise to ask the question, why are they getting that wrong impression?  I think there's room to figure out how to make other's matter, in that sense.  But I'd suspect this is could go back and forth like this forever.  I wish you the best...until next time.