Book of Mormon Lands Conference!

[livy111us]

This Saturday is the Book of Mormon Lands conference featuring some great speakers on evidence and insights into The Book of Mormon. 

"The Book of Mormon Lands Conference on April 16th! Come and enjoy some of the best scholarship and hear our MAJOR announcement. See the comments for more info on speakers, times, prices. Use this link to register. http://www.bmaf.org/catalog/4"

[Robert F. Smith]

Looks interesting, livy.  I'll see you there.

By the way, my friend Brian Stubbs doesn't have PhD, but a masters degree.

[JAHS]

They are all wrong. I still say it's on the moon.

[cdowis]

"If the Book of Mormon lands are not in mesoamerica, they are just as likely to be on the moon as anywhere else."  cdowis

Ya'll know where this thread is going, so I might as well start it.

I notice that one widely known eggspert in BOM geography is missing from the list. Surely he has something interesting to say.

Edited April 15, 2016 by cdowis

[theplains]

Does any of this have the stamp of being authoritative and true from the LDS Presidency 
or are they distancing themselves from it?

Thanks,
Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

46 minutes ago, theplains said:

Does any of this have the stamp of being authoritative and true from the LDS Presidency 
or are they distancing themselves from it?

Thanks,
Jim

They have been taught correct principles and govern themselves, as Brother Joseph urged them to -- being anxiously engaged in a good cause.  They do not need, and do not seek any ecclesiastical imprimatur or nihil obstat.  Like Brother Joseph, they love to feel untrammeled by narrow creeds.

[Teancum]

Hey!

Why isn't Rodney Meldrum on the list?!?!   

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Hey!

Why isn't Rodney Meldrum on the list?!?!   

His organization, the Firm Foundation for Indigenous Research and Mormonism, just had their Spring Expo conference on April 7-9.  http://www.firmlds.org/profile.php .

[cinepro]

23 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

His organization, the Firm Foundation for Indigenous Research and Mormonism, just had their Spring Expo conference on April 7-9.  http://www.firmlds.org/profile.php .

Wow.  Compared to Meldrum's conference, the scope of the "Book of Mormon Lands Conference" seems rather....thin?

 

FIRM Foundation Conference

Speaker Profiles Are By Category

1. Book of Mormon Research  

2. Emergency Preparedness  

3. Holistic Health & Wellness  

4. Constitution & Issues of Our Day  

5. Camping, Gardening & Food  

6. Signs of Our Times & Science

[cinepro]

And I would love to see notes from Meldrum's presentation....

Dinosaurs and the Fossilization Process

Having served as senior scientific researcher on a natural sciences textbook project for seven years, discoveries made involving the process by which living organizms become fossilized has, for the first time been observed.  What is this process, how long does it really take and where has it been observed in nature?  Join Rod as he takes you through the research that led to the discovery of the process. 

[mfbukowski]

I was wondering how the Book of Mormon could land a conference.

That's very different.

Nevermind.

[PeterPear]

23 hours ago, cinepro said:

And I would love to see notes from Meldrum's presentation....

Dinosaurs and the Fossilization Process

Having served as senior scientific researcher on a natural sciences textbook project for seven years, discoveries made involving the process by which living organizms become fossilized has, for the first time been observed.  What is this process, how long does it really take and where has it been observed in nature?  Join Rod as he takes you through the research that led to the discovery of the process. 

Meldrum doesn't believe in the theory of evolution, unlike some of the self-labeled LDS Apologists who promote a Mesoamerica Theory for the Book of Mormon, which telling about the latter.

[PeterPear]

On April 16, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

They have been taught correct principles and govern themselves, as Brother Joseph urged them to -- being anxiously engaged in a good cause.  They do not need, and do not seek any ecclesiastical imprimatur or nihil obstat.  Like Brother Joseph, they love to feel untrammeled by narrow creeds.

That's right. And at their own urgings, they also claim Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about, because they don't need to feel trammeled by Joseph Smith and his narrow creeds concerning Book of Mormon geography, per the quote below:

-------------------------------

The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerican Record:

"What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history."   http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1099

 

Now what exactly did Joseph Smith say or imply about Book of Mormon geography that LDS Mesoamerica scholars claim Joseph Smith did not understand or was ambiguous about?

You won't find it at this conference.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 minutes ago, PeterPear said:

That's right. And at their own urgings, they also claim Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about, because they don't need to feel trammeled by Joseph Smith and his narrow creeds concerning Book of Mormon geography, per the quote below:

-------------------------------

The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerican Record:

"What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history."   http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1099

 

Now what exactly did Joseph Smith say or imply about Book of Mormon geography that LDS Mesoamerica scholars claim Joseph Smith did not understand or was ambiguous about?

You won't find it at this conference.

You may wish to make Brother Joseph into an infallible Pope, or some such nonsense as suits you.  Revelations from God are one thing, offhand comments and opinions are quite another.  Those like you who have "itching ears" will find somehow that their preconceptions have been justified by this or that word or phrase, while ignoring Scripture.

[Okrahomer]

22 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I was wondering how the Book of Mormon could land a conference.

That's very different.

Nevermind.

 

Thank you, Miss Emily Litella!

[PeterPear]

19 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You may wish to make Brother Joseph into an infallible Pope, or some such nonsense as suits you.  Revelations from God are one thing, offhand comments and opinions are quite another.  Those like you who have "itching ears" will find somehow that their preconceptions have been justified by this or that word or phrase, while ignoring Scripture.

If you understood scripture, which obviously do not, you would understand scripture comes from God through his Prophets.

You would also understand, if you knew the scriptures, that every major Prophet of God is given a vision of the History of the world: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Moses, the Brother of Jared, John the Revelator, Nephi, Mormon, to name some.

Nephi would have written it but was told John was foreordained to write it down and the one to reveal it. It's now known as the Book of Revelation - as far as it was translated correctly. The Brother of Jared was commanded to seal his up to try the faith of his people and was contained in Ether's record discovered by Nephites and translated by a Nephite prophet. Mormon sealed up the revelation he received in waht is known as the sealed portion of the Gold Plates.

Knowing this precedence among the Prophets of God as outlined in scriptures, which you obviously do not understand, why do you believe the Prophet Joseph Smith would not have received a similar vision and also sealed it up from the people in our time to try their and our faith on his words? 

Thus knowing this, why do you belittle the Prophet Joseph regarding his knowledge over something as silly as geography or claim he did not understand or was vague about his knowledge of the location of Book of Mormon geography?

Because you and the former F.A.R.M.S. "Scholars" aren't scholarly enough to understand the scriptures and who the men were who wrote them down!

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by PeterPear

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

 

Thank you, Miss Emily Litella!

LOL!  Give this man a cigar!

(A candy cigar of course!!)

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, PeterPear said:

If you understood scripture, which obviously do not, you would understand scripture comes from God through his Prophets.

You would also understand, if you knew the scriptures, that every major Prophet of God is given a vision of the History of the world: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Moses, the Brother of Jared, John the Revelator, Nephi, Mormon, to name some.

Nephi would have written it but was told John was foreordained to write it down and the one to reveal it. It's now known as the Book of Revelation - as far as it was translated correctly. The Brother of Jared was commanded to seal his up to try the faith of his people and was contained in Ether's record discovered by Nephites and translated by a Nephite prophet. Mormon sealed up the revelation he received in waht is known as the sealed portion of the Gold Plates.

Knowing this precedence among the Prophets of God as outlined in scriptures, which you obviously do not understand, why do you believe the Prophet Joseph Smith would not have received a similar vision and also sealed it up from the people in our time to try their and our faith on his words? 

Thus knowing this, why do you belittle the Prophet Joseph regarding his knowledge over something as silly as geography or claim he did not understand or was vague about his knowledge of the location of Book of Mormon geography?

Because you and the former F.A.R.M.S. "Scholars" aren't scholarly enough to understand the scriptures and who the men were who wrote them down!

To claim that Joseph Smith was infallible (as you do) is to truly belittle him.  He said that a prophet was only a prophet when speaking as such.  You are unable to distinguish prophecy from opinion, and in so doing you dig a ditch for yourself and any others who wish to follow you.  You need to deal with the hate and anger in your heart before you can go about hectoring and correcting others.

[JulieM]

From the OP:

"The Book of Mormon Lands Conference on April 16th! Come and enjoy some of the best scholarship and hear our MAJOR announcement."

Can you share what the "major announcement" was?

[RevTestament]

On 4/17/2016 at 9:11 PM, PeterPear said:

That's right. And at their own urgings, they also claim Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about, because they don't need to feel trammeled by Joseph Smith and his narrow creeds concerning Book of Mormon geography, per the quote below:

-------------------------------

The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerican Record:

"What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history."   http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1099

 

Now what exactly did Joseph Smith say or imply about Book of Mormon geography that LDS Mesoamerica scholars claim Joseph Smith did not understand or was ambiguous about?

You won't find it at this conference.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean there aren't things to be learned. There is actually evidence of a subsequent cultural connection between areas of N. America and Mexico/Mesoamerica. An example would be a type of gate at a "Hopewell" fortification which we have every reason to believe was primary to later such gates showing up in southern Mexico. In other words there is archaeological evidence of a new architectural feature being copied in the south after BoM times. This has implications for who the Lamanites are now. Hopewell technologies got spread far and wide, which implies far ranging trade networks and peopling. Indeed didn't the Nephites plant corn? How did they get it if they lived in the North as you believe?

[cdowis]

The mesoamerica model does not preclude BOM peoples living in North America.  It was called the "land northward".

[Anijen]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Hopewell technologies got spread far and wide, which implies far ranging trade networks and peopling. Indeed didn't the Nephites plant corn? How did they get it if they lived in the North as you believe?

The Hopewell indeed had a large trading arena, but that does not mean it had extended down into Mesoamerica. Although there is more evidence of Mesoamerica extending its trade into the Hopewell regions (such as some artifacts that are similar to some Mesoamerican ones found at Poverty Point). I have to clarify most scholars differentiate between the Hopewell and those at Poverty Point.

As far as corn goes, that debate has long been settled. Corn was domesticated first in Central America and migrated North and South then toward the east coast.  This has been shown to be accurate by different levels of core samples from all over the north and southern hemispheres. In all samples the oldest pollen counts that have the corn genome have been dated to Mexico being the oldest and then found in the Arizona/New Mexico areas, then IIRC shows up in the east coast around 850-900 AD.

As far as the gate you mention, in my opinion many things can be developed simultaneously (or at different times), without having the benefit of contact. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Anijen

[cinepro]

On 4/17/2016 at 8:28 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You may wish to make Brother Joseph into an infallible Pope, or some such nonsense as suits you.  Revelations from God are one thing, offhand comments and opinions are quite another.  Those like you who have "itching ears" will find somehow that their preconceptions have been justified by this or that word or phrase, while ignoring Scripture.

Taking someone at their word isn't the same thing as making them an "infallible Pope."

But you probably knew that, which means that's your best way to deal with Joseph's claims about the origin and scope of the people in the Book of Mormon.

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by cinepro

[Robert F. Smith]

39 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Taking someone at their word isn't the same thing as making them an "infallible Pope."

But you probably knew that, which means that's your best way to deal with Joseph's claims about the origin and scope of the people in the Book of Mormon.

I was replying to someone who believes that anything a prophet says or does is automatically Scripture or inspired.  Joseph himself tried to put the kibbosh on that silly belief during his own lifetime, and we can know objectively now that many things he did were all too human, from wrestling and playing mumbly peg to editing the second edition of the Book of Mormon.

The latter example is very telling.  Some had thought that his editing of the 1837 edition was inspired, and I had long thought that it made practical sense to update the language and correct some of the grammar of the 1830 edition going forward.  I didn't see any need for inspiration to do that, but didn't really know.  With the current research of Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack, it has since become clear that the entire BofM was dictated by Joseph in good Early Modern English, and that it does not contain any EME grammatical errors.  Joseph himself obviously did not know that, and did not have the tools to know it.  He simply did the best he could with the tools he had available -- as any of us might.  The same applies to Apostle Orson Pratt's notes in his 1879 edition of the BofM, placing the River Sidon in South America -- a notion which I accepted when young and unlearned.  I like to take a real world approach to all such claims.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 4/17/2016 at 0:21 AM, JulieM said:

From the OP:

"The Book of Mormon Lands Conference on April 16th! Come and enjoy some of the best scholarship and hear our MAJOR announcement."

Can you share what the "major announcement" was?

Kirk Magleby announced that BMAF, which put on the annual Book of Mormon Lands Conference, is merging with Book of Mormon Central, which you can read about at https://bookofmormoncentral.org/ .