Equal Pay Day

[canard78]

2 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I think there probably is one. However, I also think that people with an agenda to push may tend to inflate the statistics to make their case seem more compelling.

I'd be interested to know if, for example, the set of all fifty-year-old lifelong career CPA's shows a statistically significant gender divide in salaries.

IOW, control for the variables, and see what happens then.

I suspect that there might still be one; but I'd be mightily surprised if it was as many percentage points as are talked about in the OP.

I suspect that the OP is talking about an overall earning ratio, which is influenced by many factors, as you pointed out.

So, IOW, the numbers are skewed by the fact that they are comparing the salaries of airline pilots with those of flight attendants. Or forty-year career employees with returning-to-the-workforce mothers.

You're probably right. There is a gap, but it's probably not the 25-30% in the vast majority of cases it's claimed to be. At least not for the same roles/experiences etc.

For example:

 

Quote

 

What we created was an apples-to-apples comparison of what men and women make, all other factors held equal, according to actual market data. For example, the male software developer median, annual salary is $65,700, which is 4 percent more than the median female value of $63,300.

 

http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap

 

So yes, still a small gap, but not as big as is claimed.

It still means there are opportunists to elevate pay of women. If the differences is simply symptomatic of the different roles men and women choose to apply for then there's no inequality. 

If, however, men are, in part, getting better jobs because they are men then the gap is still flagging a problem. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by canard78

[USU78]

My how things have changed around here. Time was, a political thread like this would be shut down by around the 3rd response. 

[canard78]

14 minutes ago, USU78 said:

My how things have changed around here. Time was, a political thread like this would be shut down by around the 3rd response. 

How is this political?

For me, this is a conversation about lies, damned lies and statistics

And then a conversation about economic mobility of women. 

I would like to hope that, if all other things were equal (experience, pay, qualifications etc) that my daughter will be paid exactly the same as a would be if he had the same job as her. I also hope that she has just as good a chance of getting that job in the first place as a man would. 

Thankfully, we're moving in that direction. Not just closing pay gaps but seeing it as equally acceptable for a woman to work in leading roles as a man. 

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, canard78 said:

I was talking about the potential reasons why Utah's gender pay gap is wider than in other states. 

The gender gap is narrowing, but remains in Utah:

http://m.deseretnews.com/article/865570749/Utahs-college-gender-gap-shrinking-but-state-lags-behind-nation-in-earning-degrees.html?pg=all

Besides, graduations "today" have little impact on a pay gap. Most people in the job market earned their degrees years (or even decades) ago... especially the highest earners. What was the Utah graduation gender gap in the 90s and 00s? If it was greater than the U.S. average then that will, in part, be having an effect on the gender wage gap today. 

That's true about the college thing "today", but I thought it was worth mentioning at least.

As far as Utah is concerned, of course it would be the state with a large proportion of women interrupting or delaying their careers for the purpose of raising children.

You understand that I fully support the principle that a woman should not be paid less just because she is a woman?  But I believe that the current hoo-hoorah over gender paygaps is largely based on the principle that certain people want the government to step in and control all salaries.  Creeping socialism.

One the funny things about this is that if it were really true that employers were trying to pay women less than men just based on their gender, it would make more economic sense to hire only women, just to save money.  Yet this isn't what is happening.

 

[saemo]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-the-real-reason-women-still-get-paid-less-20160412-story.html

"Women have reversed men's longstanding educational advantage. They now have higher average levels of schooling than men, and are more likely to have an advanced degree."

 

"Women have also come close to obliterating the experience gap. In 1981, men had almost seven years more full-time experience in the labor market than women. Right now, the gap is around 1.4 years. Here again, much of the improvement for women occurred in the 1980s.

Blau and Kahn find that gains in education and experience account for the lion's share of the post-1980 reduction in the wage gap. In 1981, men had a strong majority of managerial jobs; now men and women are nearly equal on that count.

When, then, does the gap persist, and why is it so big? The difference in experience levels, while vastly reduced, continues to be a contributing factor. And because women are more likely to leave work to care for children, men also benefit from a significantly lower rate of work-force interruptions."

"Which brings us to the question of sex discrimination, pure and simple. Controlling for everything else, Blau and Kahn find a big chunk of the gap comes from "unexplained factors" -- that is, factors that do not amount to measurable differences between men and women (such as work experience).

There's good reason to think that sex discrimination is among those "unexplained factors." (It might not be all of it; for example, men might have productivity advantages that the data cannot capture.) Studies of law school graduates find that controlling for a wide range of variables, men earn 11 percent more than women; a similar study of business school graduates finds a gender gap of 7 percent."

 

 

[saemo]

4 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

When was computer programming dominated by women? I never saw such a time.

What I've seen is that when I started in IT, women programmers were as scarce as hen's teeth, but there's a lot more of them now.

The earliest programming was all done in machine code, and women were hardly seen.

What was seen was that there was a lot of "electronic data processing" back in the day, and there were lots of women involved in that. They would sit at a terminal and simply punch in numbers from paper forms. It was mind-numbingly horrible work, and it has thankfully disappeared. No doubt those women weren't paid very well; in fact, they were often paid by the number of keystrokes per hour (just to give you an idea of the kind of work it was.)

I'm inclined to take with a grain of salt "studies" that seem to show an ideological bias.

I've heard similar stories from others.

But again, back in the day, there were a lot more men in the teaching profession. Were teachers paid more then?

 

As opposed to trusting your own biases which have no backing?

You need to go further back into computing history. Men, who had the education, were engineering the computers. Women, were doing the menial coding work. Computer programming was not yet offered as an academic degree. Coding was viewed as administrative work to the work of engineering. Women by and large were not accepted into the fields dominated by men, such as engineering. 

Once the fields in computer technology began to grow, degrees were offered, in which men, because of the time and culture, earned and no women did. The technology field, of which I have worked in since 1980, is still dominated by men. Women are still less likely to choose careers in math, engineering, science and technology. 

Anyway, real studies by qualified men, as I quoted above, indicate your view needs adjusting.

BTW I started in 1980 as a data entry clerk, in the Information Services department. I was paid by the hour...$3.60. I taught myself how to program and was able by 1987 to make $30k a year! I have never complained about what I make in IT. I enjoy it, for the most part and most of the time, and have great satisfaction in my career. I've never viewed men as my competitors, because they make more. I just don't care, really, but I do care about these issues when it comes to my daughter who is at the beginning of her work life. I want her to have all the best. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by saemo

[mtomm]

9 hours ago, sjdawg said:

I think part of the issue was a company culture that said if your employees aren't demanding increases then don't give any out.   she wasn't the type to complain and so her compensation was easily ignored.

This is a part of the reason women earn less pay even though everything else is equal.  We don't negotiate or ask for more so part of it is our fault, we don't use salary negotiation.  I can look it up if someone wants to CFR it but really doesn't seem to be a controversial point.

[cinepro]

6 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

When was computer programming dominated by women? I never saw such a time.

This is when.

 

If your image of a computer programmer is a young man, there's a good reason: It's true. Recently, many big tech companies revealed how few of their female employees worked in programming and technical jobs. Google had some of the highest rates: 17 percent of its technical staff is female.

It wasn't always this way. Decades ago, it was women who pioneered computer programming — but too often, that's a part of history that even the smartest people don't know.

Edited April 13, 2016 by cinepro

[Jeanne]

11 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Well done.

I agree...well done.  Anything that put any kind of fairness to one who has earned it..is a big plus.  At Walmart, my fellow employees just pay eachother on the back..that is all we get.  What I would give to have a "job well done" certificate that gives me any kind of "atta boy".  As it is, I had my evaluation yesterday and they told me to "step it up"!!  Nobody knows I go in early on my own time and go the extra mile. And if they did  know..they would fire me. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Jeanne

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I agree...well done.  Anything that put any kind of fairness to one who has earned it..is a big plus.  At Walmart, my fellow employees just pay eachother on the back..that is all we get.  What I would give to have a "job well done" certificate that gives me any kind of "atta boy".  As it is, I had my evaluation yesterday and they told me to "step it up"!!  Nobody knows I go in early on my own time and go the extra mile. And if they did  know..they would fire me. 

Oh Jeanne, I'm sorry you have to do that, and do it in secret (go the extra mile).  If I remember right you work in a bakery, that's tough work.  One of my husband's and my friend worked for Sam's Club as a baker, he finally quit and gave up a great retirement package, 3 weeks vacation etc. because of a co worker over him.  He needed more "atta boy" also.  ETA:  Actually I think it was 5 weeks paid vacation.  He had worked there for years.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Tacenda

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I agree...well done.  Anything that put any kind of fairness to one who has earned it..is a big plus.  At Walmart, my fellow employees just pay eachother on the back..that is all we get.  What I would give to have a "job well done" certificate that gives me any kind of "atta boy".  As it is, I had my evaluation yesterday and they told me to "step it up"!!  Nobody knows I go in early on my own time and go the extra mile. And if they did  know..they would fire me. 

Are you saying you do work off the clock?!  You should not be doing that; they would fire you because it is illegal!

[Traela]

I seem to remember an article from a few months ago, maybe on Meridian Magazine?, that suggested that part of the increased pay gap in Utah is due to men, especially married men, earning higher than average wages for their industries.  Their point being that men were consciously or unconsciously making up for their wives' lower wages due to less time in the workforce.

 

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Oh Jeanne, I'm sorry you have to do that, and do it in secret (go the extra mile).  If I remember right you work in a bakery, that's tough work.  One of my husband's and my friend worked for Sam's Club as a baker, he finally quit and gave up a great retirement package, 3 weeks vacation etc. because of a co worker over him.  He needed more "atta boy" also.  ETA:  Actually I think it was 5 weeks paid vacation.  He had worked there for years.

Oh..it is incredible..you can never do enough.  I need a job that makes me feel like I really accomplished something.  What is sad is that my customers love what I do..they are okay with our bakery..there must some data or quota they have to live up to.  Sam's club is the same so I this guy quitting.  Actually, people, my goal was to be a granny...always in an apron..with cookies in the oven.

[Jeanne]

51 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Are you saying you do work off the clock?!  You should not be doing that; they would fire you because it is illegal!

That is right,...but I can't handle the stress of not having my work done on time.  If my boss if off for the day..I got his job, too,  The people over me don't know diddly squat about running a bakery. 

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

Oh..it is incredible..you can never do enough.  I need a job that makes me feel like I really accomplished something.  What is sad is that my customers love what I do..they are okay with our bakery..there must some data or quota they have to live up to.  Sam's club is the same so I this guy quitting.  Actually, people, my goal was to be a granny...always in an apron..with cookies in the oven.

Our friend and his wife opened a small shop called "Just Desserts" for awhile.  Too bad it didn't do as well, but he was serving mostly ice cream, pie...desserts like that, with some lunch items.  They finally closed shop, I guess their location wasn't the best either.  I can see you in a little shop yourself Jeanne!!  If I had the money, I would invest in you!!

[USU78]

8 hours ago, canard78 said:

How is this political?

For me, this is a conversation about lies, damned lies and statistics

And then a conversation about economic mobility of women. 

I would like to hope that, if all other things were equal (experience, pay, qualifications etc) that my daughter will be paid exactly the same as a would be if he had the same job as her. I also hope that she has just as good a chance of getting that job in the first place as a man would. 

Thankfully, we're moving in that direction. Not just closing pay gaps but seeing it as equally acceptable for a woman to work in leading roles as a man. 

Huh?  If it's not political and it's not remotely related to things Mormon, then just what kind of duck is it, canard?

[Jeanne]

43 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Our friend and his wife opened a small shop called "Just Desserts" for awhile.  Too bad it didn't do as well, but he was serving mostly ice cream, pie...desserts like that, with some lunch items.  They finally closed shop, I guess their location wasn't the best either.  I can see you in a little shop yourself Jeanne!!  If I had the money, I would invest in you!!

Thank you!!!

[Russell C McGregor]

17 hours ago, saemo said:

Research by Claudia Goldin, a Harvard economist, has found that a pay gap persists within occupations. Female physicians, for instance, earn 71 percent of what male physicians earn, and lawyers earn 82 percent.
It happens across professions: This month, the union that represents Dow Jones journalists announced that its female members working full time at Dow Jones publications made 87 cents for every dollar earned by their full-time male colleagues.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-the-real-reason-women-still-get-paid-less-20160412-story.html

Here's an interesting alternative perspective on the physicians and teachers:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433973/donald-trump-colorado-delegates-following-rules

Yes, I know it's mostly talking about Donald Trump, but the relevant paragraphs are further down:

 

Quote

Some years ago, I was shocked when my research turned up the fact that young male physicians earned substantially more than young female physicians. But, when my research also turned up the fact that young male physicians work hundreds of hours more per year than young female physicians, it was not shocking any more.

[...]

Among college graduates, women receive more than three-quarters of the degrees in education, while men receive more than three-quarters of the degrees in engineering. When engineers are paid more than teachers — partly because engineers work year-round, while teachers work nine months — do not be surprised by sex differences in earnings among college graduates.

 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Huh?  If it's not political and it's not remotely related to things Mormon, then just what kind of duck is it, canard?

Maybe it belongs in Social.  It's kind of Mormon to me, since mostly LDS make the laws?  Or do laws have anything whatsoever to do with it.  But that's political maybe.  That was my bend on it.  

[Russell C McGregor]

8 hours ago, mtomm said:

This is a part of the reason women earn less pay even though everything else is equal.  We don't negotiate or ask for more so part of it is our fault, we don't use salary negotiation.  I can look it up if someone wants to CFR it but really doesn't seem to be a controversial point.

Yes, I've heard this as well.

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

These sorts of statistics look bad, until we ask the hard questions.

Do women make 67 cents in the dollar compared to men in the same jobs, with the same qualifications and the same seniority?

There might still be a pay gap even when you control for the variables, but it's unlikely to be that high. But you can't get any relevant comparisons if you're comparing male CEO's with waitresses.

And especially if you are including non-earning people when doing the calculations. (Eg. the total amount earned by 1 million men was $X, the total amount earned by 1 million women was $Y, and they didn't exclude stay-at-home mothers from the sample.)

Everyone I know of is in favour of equal pay, as long as it's for equal work.

 

I agree with Russell here. These stats always baffle me.  I run a company with 200 employees.  More than half are women.  There is no pay disparity for women doing the same jobs as men.  Some women make more than men is similar positions and visa versa because we pay on performance.   We have hired talented women from the outside and pay them very well.  I can think of two women we hired in the past four years that came in at a pay rate much higher than some men at their level because we had to buy their talent and they were very much worth the higher salaries.  I see the same in similar businesses that our competitors of ours.   Maybe our industry in unique but there is no pay inequality whatsoever in the space I work in.

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I agree with Russell here. These stats always baffle me.  I run a company with 200 employees.  More than half are women.  There is no pay disparity for women doing the same jobs as men.  Some women make more than men is similar positions and visa versa because we pay on performance.   We have hired talented women from the outside and pay them very well.  I can think of two women we hired in the past four years that came in at a pay rate much higher than some men at their level because we had to buy their talent and they were very much worth the higher salaries.  I see the same in similar businesses that our competitors of ours.   Maybe our industry in unique but there is no pay inequality whatsoever in the space I work in.

Is it possible that these women are asking for pay raises etc.?  And what field is the company you run?  If you don't mind me asking.  Many factors contribute to the pay women receive.  It must be the case in many situations for the news to broadcast it as being the case.  Of course that doesn't mean there aren't holes to the story, but you'd think they had to find factual information or checked their resources.  

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I agree with Russell here. 

Breaking News: Hell has just frozen over.

[webbles]

I'm always confused by how this is possible.  If women are really paid less, then shouldn't companies be hiring more women and firing the men?  It would substantially reduce their employee costs and yet they would still get the same work done.  Why aren't companies doing that?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

I'm always confused by how this is possible.  If women are really paid less, then shouldn't companies be hiring more women and firing the men?  It would substantially reduce their employee costs and yet they would still get the same work done.  Why aren't companies doing that?

As someone who works in an office that is over 75% female I think my company, at least, is.

I have no idea if women at my level are getting paid as much as me though I honestly doubt it. I have no idea how much of that is the weird way I negotiated my salary and how much is the regular gender gap.