california boy Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 45 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: What principles? It is my private business and I don't want to do a special order. Do you think any customer has the right to force a private business to work if they don't want to? Or do you feel if you are gay you get to force anyone you want to perform a service? Which is it? ahhh. the principle that we shouldn't discriminate? The principle that just because you own the business doesn't mean you get to break the law? If you intend to break the law when you apply for a business license, perhaps you should consider not opening a business. And the principle that Christ taught to serve others whether they are sinners or not. Shunning is not a christian principle. It is not "the gays" that are forcing a business to not discriminate. It is the laws of this country. If you think the discrimination laws that have been in place for over 50 years should be abandoned, then lobby your congressman. But don't blame the gays for wanting the government to enforce the laws of this country. I think every customer deserves to be treated equally as does the laws of this country. This isn't just a gay issue. This just happens to be the latest group "christians" want to discriminate against. 3
california boy Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, CV75 said: I haven’t been talking about wedding cakes; haven’t mentioned them once in our conversation. The fact that you think otherwise betrays your blinders to the real issue, which is: how (and how well) we balance our support and application of special protection (constitutional) and equal protection (legal), both as an individual and as part of the greater communally, and not hysterically accusing people of doing Satan’s work (as you are), which is about as sensible as hawking hobo-flavored cake. And of course I give myself rep points—I’ve been given a special dispensation on this board to do so. If you believe in the gospel message of Christ to serve all, saint and sinner, then we have no problem. If you believe in the gospel principle that we should never shun someone or refuse to do business with someone because they are sinners, then we have no problem. If you agree with me, then we are on the same side, fighting those who have hijacked the gospel of Jesus Christ. You should give yourself a rep point. Those that teach another gospel are indeed doing the work of satan. It is a counterfeit to the message that he taught.
california boy Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 18 minutes ago, ERMD said: If the bakers are the "sinners" in this case, it seems that the gay community in general does not share your compassion. On that same note, do you? I would love to have the opportunity to sit down with these bakers and present to them the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are so many stories and sermons Christ taught on this issue. My favorite being Matthew 25, His very last public sermon, and I think the one He wanted us to follow the very most. 1
cinepro Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 45 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: So you run a small business. Are you saying you must accept to do every order that comes in the door? If not, when is the business owner entitled to say, "no thank you"? At some point a business owner is forced to discriminate about how much work she can do and how much she cannot do. What you said above does seem to allow for common sense, which dictates saying I don't want to work 24/7. I think the point is that the bakers said "I won't make your cake because you're gay." If they had said "I won't make your cake because I'm too busy", then it would be up to the couple to prove that it was actually because they're gay. But when the baker comes out and says it, that takes the issue beyond simple issues of workflow management. 3
Storm Rider Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 36 minutes ago, california boy said: ahhh. the principle that we shouldn't discriminate? The principle that just because you own the business doesn't mean you get to break the law? If you intend to break the law when you apply for a business license, perhaps you should consider not opening a business. And the principle that Christ taught to serve others whether they are sinners or not. Shunning is not a christian principle. It is not "the gays" that are forcing a business to not discriminate. It is the laws of this country. If you think the discrimination laws that have been in place for over 50 years should be abandoned, then lobby your congressman. But don't blame the gays for wanting the government to enforce the laws of this country. I think every customer deserves to be treated equally as does the laws of this country. This isn't just a gay issue. This just happens to be the latest group "christians" want to discriminate against. Ho, ho, ho, get off that big high horse. The context of my comment was when is a business owner entitled to say no to a request for business. Are you saying that a business owner must accept every request for business regardless of how many hours he is working or forcing him to work more hours than he wants? Denying to work more than you want to work is discrimination. Are you saying that a business owner cannot have that discretion? So, who are all the people that Christians discriminate against? I want to see the list because I missed it. Name all the groups you discriminate against? How many ugly people do you go out of the way to work with or to use their service. How many rabid anti-gay people do you go out of our way to employ and buy from? How many evaluate businesses and who do you intentionally discriminate against? You see, that glass house of yours makes a terrible position from which to throw rocks. Everyone discriminates - everyone and all of us do it every day. 1
Gray Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 56 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: So you run a small business. Are you saying you must accept to do every order that comes in the door? If not, when is the business owner entitled to say, "no thank you"? At some point a business owner is forced to discriminate about how much work she can do and how much she cannot do. What you said above does seem to allow for common sense, which dictates saying I don't want to work 24/7. Can you see the difference between not accepting more orders because you're busy and not accepting more orders only from Hispanic customers? 2
Storm Rider Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 11 minutes ago, cinepro said: I think the point is that the bakers said "I won't make your cake because you're gay." If they had said "I won't make your cake because I'm too busy", then it would be up to the couple to prove that it was actually because they're gay. But when the baker comes out and says it, that takes the issue beyond simple issues of workflow management. I understand the dynamics of the Oregon bakery; it was not the context I was talking about.
ALarson Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Denying to work more than you want to work is discrimination. Are you saying that a business owner cannot have that discretion? How is a business having set hours of operation or having set days or hours that they are open for business, discrimination? Especially retails businesses (since most all of these have the days and hours posted stating when they are open for business). Edited March 31, 2016 by ALarson
Storm Rider Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 1 minute ago, ALarson said: How is a business having set hours of operation or having set days or hours they are open, discrimination? Especially retails businesses. Most all of these have the days and hours posted stating when they are open for business. The issue is working more than your posted hours. If someone comes in your shop and wants a custom cake and if you accept the request you know you will be working more hours. A business owner determines does he want to work more or not. Some here seem to think IF THE CLIENT IS GAY then he must fulfill the order because....well because they are gay and everyone should know they cannot deny service to them for any reason. Working more hours than posted is an exception and owners discriminate when they will and when they will not work more hours than what is posted. Heck, some bakeries may not want to work harder during the hours posted.
ALarson Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: The issue is working more than your posted hours. If someone comes in your shop and wants a custom cake and if you accept the request you know you will be working more hours. A business owner determines does he want to work more or not. Some here seem to think IF THE CLIENT IS GAY then he must fulfill the order because....well because they are gay and everyone should know they cannot deny service to them for any reason. Now you're just making stuff up. Where did you read this baker would have had to work extra hours just because it was a gay couple requesting the wedding cake vs. any other couple requesting a wedding cake? Were they requesting one for the same day or something out of line or out of the ordinary time frame? Edited March 31, 2016 by ALarson
T-Shirt Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Lets say you open a grocery store. You want to sell to anyone with the money to buy your goods. Your business is in a place where the overwhelming number of potential customers are bigoted against Mormons. The Mormons are so few they can't keep you in business, as they can only buy so much from you. The bigots will discourage Mormons and non-bigots from going to your grocery store thus driving you out of business. What does this have to do with anything?
ttribe Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, T-Shirt said: What does this have to do with anything? It makes sense in his head...I'd suggest just leaving it there. Edited March 31, 2016 by ttribe
rockpond Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, california boy said: I would love to have the opportunity to sit down with these bakers and present to them the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are so many stories and sermons Christ taught on this issue. My favorite being Matthew 25, His very last public sermon, and I think the one He wanted us to follow the very most. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
T-Shirt Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: The law doesn't require you to do special orders. What the law does say is that if you already do special orders you can't discriminate against those that want your special orders. But it is not the person that the business owner objects to, it is what he is being forced to put on the product that he objects to. No one is discriminating against a person or a group of people.
JulieM Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 10 minutes ago, T-Shirt said: But it is not the person that the business owner objects to, it is what he is being forced to put on the product that he objects to. No one is discriminating against a person or a group of people. Were those ordering the wedding cake asking for something to be "put on" the cake (or written on the cake)?
T-Shirt Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, california boy said: And the principle that Christ taught to serve others whether they are sinners or not. Shunning is not a christian principle. This really gets tiring. You keep setting up a straw man argument. For example, I said I wouldn't print a particular offensive shirt for a Skin Head. However, if that same Skin Head's car broke down, I would gladly help him, or if he became ill and needed some yard work done, I would organize a group of people to go do it for him and help arrange for meals to be brought in. If he then asked my business to print a shirt for him that says, "I hate Jews", I would decline. Jesus would not expect me to print this shirt for him and you know it. This is not the kind of service Jesus was referring to. The government has no business forcing me to do it either. Stop shifting the issue and using Jesus to prop up a bad argument. Edited March 31, 2016 by T-Shirt 3
Storm Rider Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 43 minutes ago, JulieM said: Were those ordering the wedding cake asking for something to be "put on" the cake (or written on the cake)? In the case of the Oregon bakery I am not aware that the bakery was requested to do anything except make a wedding cake. I am not aware that they were asked to put a statue of two women on top or anything else; just make a custom wedding cake for their marriage reception.
consiglieri Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 3 hours ago, california boy said: So it becomes a wich hunt when the gay couples stands up for their principles. Hummm. Maybe that gay couple isn't buying into the idea that Christ taught to discriminate, not serve sinners, shun those who sin. Maybe it is that gay couple that is trying to teach the baker to follow the teachings of Christ and serve all, saint or sinner. I agree with much of what you say, CB. But I do not believe it is the place of government to force privately owned businesses to follow Christian principles.
CV75 Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 2 hours ago, california boy said: If you believe in the gospel message of Christ to serve all, saint and sinner, then we have no problem. If you believe in the gospel principle that we should never shun someone or refuse to do business with someone because they are sinners, then we have no problem. If you agree with me, then we are on the same side, fighting those who have hijacked the gospel of Jesus Christ. You should give yourself a rep point. Those that teach another gospel are indeed doing the work of satan. It is a counterfeit to the message that he taught. I think the subject of counterfeit gospels is very complicated, and probably better served by a separate thread. But from what you wrote otherwise, how do you relate having a problem with others’ religious beliefs while protecting their freedom in exercising their beliefs (or not exercising them)? How do you relate the constitutionality of laws to the constitutionality of religious expression? Where do you see room for compromise in acting on either? How do you go about coming to a compromise with those who differ from you?
california boy Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 4 hours ago, T-Shirt said: This really gets tiring. You keep setting up a straw man argument. For example, I said I wouldn't print a particular offensive shirt for a Skin Head. However, if that same Skin Head's car broke down, I would gladly help him, or if he became ill and needed some yard work done, I would organize a group of people to go do it for him and help arrange for meals to be brought in. If he then asked my business to print a shirt for him that says, "I hate Jews", I would decline. Jesus would not expect me to print this shirt for him and you know it. This is not the kind of service Jesus was referring to. The government has no business forcing me to do it either. Stop shifting the issue and using Jesus to prop up a bad argument. The reason this is getting tiring to you is because you are talking about two completely different things. The law does not require you to print hate messages or any other offensive message. And I don't think that Christ would expect you to print a hate message. But that is NOT what we are talking about. We are talking about selling a t-shirt to a skin head that you already make or make on a regular basis for your other customers. This is about a baker selling a generic wedding cake that they bake for all their other customers. The baker nor the t-shirt company is not required to print ANYTHING special on the cake or the t-shirt. You do not have a right to ask where the t-shirt is going to be worn. That is none of your business. There was a case where the baker refused to print something offensive on the cake. They refused. The customer sued and LOST. And you are right. It is getting tiring repeating myself. Probably tiring for you to read it. But even though this very issue has been brought up and talked about in other previous threads, unfortunately people continue to bring it up without any understanding of the laws. 3
california boy Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 3 hours ago, CV75 said: I think the subject of counterfeit gospels is very complicated, and probably better served by a separate thread. But from what you wrote otherwise, how do you relate having a problem with others’ religious beliefs while protecting their freedom in exercising their beliefs (or not exercising them)? How do you relate the constitutionality of laws to the constitutionality of religious expression? Where do you see room for compromise in acting on either? How do you go about coming to a compromise with those who differ from you? In terms of business, I expect every single business to sell their products to whoever walks into the door and asks for them. Treat others with the same respect you would want. Serve all, saint and sinner. Let ALL worship and practice their religion as they see fit. If a Mormon wants to use the bread the baker makes for their sacrament, then let them. If the Catholic church wants to use your flour to make wafers, then let them. If a Jewish youth group wants to wear your tee shirts for a youth activity then let them. If a Muslin sells firewood and a Christian wants to use one of the logs to celebrate a Christmas Yule log, let them. Do we really want to live in a world where we decide how the products we sell are used before we make a sale? It is a ridiculous expectation. How anyone would have any problem with this is really beyond my understanding. There is NO SIN in selling any of these products when the use is non criminal. 2
Storm Rider Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 38 minutes ago, california boy said: In terms of business, I expect every single business to sell their products to whoever walks into the door and asks for them. Treat others with the same respect you would want. Serve all, saint and sinner. Let ALL worship and practice their religion as they see fit. If a Mormon wants to use the bread the baker makes for their sacrament, then let them. If the Catholic church wants to use your flour to make wafers, then let them. If a Jewish youth group wants to wear your tee shirts for a youth activity then let them. If a Muslin sells firewood and a Christian wants to use one of the logs to celebrate a Christmas Yule log, let them. Do we really want to live in a world where we decide how the products we sell are used before we make a sale? It is a ridiculous expectation. How anyone would have any problem with this is really beyond my understanding. There is NO SIN in selling any of these products when the use is non criminal. I don't think that anyone has stated that anyone has the right to refuse service to any person regardless of race, gender, or sexual preference for items off the shelf. If a baker bakes and has cakes, cookies, and donuts on the shelf then all may buy what is offered. The tricky part is when it is a special service; something that is a talent that is being sold. A baker decorates cakes for special occasions. At what point can an owner discriminate? Every owner discriminates about whom they will serve just as every person alive discriminates every day where they buy what they want or talk to others. Can an owner say no to a request for a special service? When? Is it only if they have time an opening in their work schedule? Should they be allowed to take vacations? What about sick days? What about a really rude patron; must they make a custom cake for them? Why? Who determines if the baker is working hard enough and that if they worked harder they could bake a cake for a gay person? A black person? A Muslim person? A white person? Do we use the same standard for everyone or is the business owner terrified of refusing service to special, protected classes of people? Why are they afraid? Well because saying no results in have their entire business taken away from them when a gay person does not get their way.
california boy Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: I don't think that anyone has stated that anyone has the right to refuse service to any person regardless of race, gender, or sexual preference for items off the shelf. If a baker bakes and has cakes, cookies, and donuts on the shelf then all may buy what is offered. The tricky part is when it is a special service; something that is a talent that is being sold. A baker decorates cakes for special occasions. At what point can an owner discriminate? Every owner discriminates about whom they will serve just as every person alive discriminates every day where they buy what they want or talk to others. Can an owner say no to a request for a special service? When? Is it only if they have time an opening in their work schedule? Should they be allowed to take vacations? What about sick days? What about a really rude patron; must they make a custom cake for them? Why? Who determines if the baker is working hard enough and that if they worked harder they could bake a cake for a gay person? A black person? A Muslim person? A white person? Do we use the same standard for everyone or is the business owner terrified of refusing service to special, protected classes of people? Why are they afraid? Well because saying no results in have their entire business taken away from them when a gay person does not get their way. If the baker is decorating a cake the same way he decorates every cake he does for a wedding for example, then it should not make any difference. If a customer is asking for a "special gay marriage design" then the baker has every right to refuse to do that. It is not something that he offers to his other customers. Time is a different issue. Bakers can refuse to bake a cake for ANY customer because of time. No reason has to be given except "I simply don't have time to do the order, but if you can give me more time, I will be able to do the order when things free up a little." If a baker tells a gay couple that they don't have time to do the order and then 5 minutes later, a straight couple comes in for the same type of wedding cake and the baker suddenly has time, then there is a problem. I think you can understand that. The baker determines whether they are working hard enough. No one is forcing a baker to work more or less than they are willing to work. No one should be afraid of refusing service if that refusal is NOT based on the fact that they are a minority. You are bringing up issues that have never been an issue with the courts. No one that I know of has been successfully sued because they didn't have time to fill an order. People get sued because they refuse to service a customer BECAUSE they are gay or Muslin or Black etc. 2
thesometimesaint Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Ho, ho, ho, get off that big high horse. The context of my comment was when is a business owner entitled to say no to a request for business. Are you saying that a business owner must accept every request for business regardless of how many hours he is working or forcing him to work more hours than he wants? Denying to work more than you want to work is discrimination. Are you saying that a business owner cannot have that discretion? So, who are all the people that Christians discriminate against? I want to see the list because I missed it. Name all the groups you discriminate against? How many ugly people do you go out of the way to work with or to use their service. How many rabid anti-gay people do you go out of our way to employ and buy from? How many evaluate businesses and who do you intentionally discriminate against? You see, that glass house of yours makes a terrible position from which to throw rocks. Everyone discriminates - everyone and all of us do it every day. The law isn't forcing you to work ANY number of hours. That is solely your choosing. You can not legally discriminate against a person because of their race, creed, color, religion, national origin, sex, and increasingly sexual orientation Before I retired I was a Social Worker. My professional Code of Ethics says: SEE https://www.socialworkers.org/pubs/code/code.asp Which are even more stringent than the anti-discrimination laws. I still hold by that Code of Ethics. Ps: There is only one business I discriminate against. I refuse to buy things at Walmart because of their business practices. Edited April 1, 2016 by thesometimesaint 1
Storm Rider Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 7 hours ago, california boy said: If the baker is decorating a cake the same way he decorates every cake he does for a wedding for example, then it should not make any difference. If a customer is asking for a "special gay marriage design" then the baker has every right to refuse to do that. It is not something that he offers to his other customers. Time is a different issue. Bakers can refuse to bake a cake for ANY customer because of time. No reason has to be given except "I simply don't have time to do the order, but if you can give me more time, I will be able to do the order when things free up a little." If a baker tells a gay couple that they don't have time to do the order and then 5 minutes later, a straight couple comes in for the same type of wedding cake and the baker suddenly has time, then there is a problem. I think you can understand that. The baker determines whether they are working hard enough. No one is forcing a baker to work more or less than they are willing to work. No one should be afraid of refusing service if that refusal is NOT based on the fact that they are a minority. You are bringing up issues that have never been an issue with the courts. No one that I know of has been successfully sued because they didn't have time to fill an order. People get sued because they refuse to service a customer BECAUSE they are gay or Muslin or Black etc. Cal, on a personal level we don't disagree. If I am running a business I am running a business for profit and will serve anyone that is willing to pay. The only caveat is I don't like rude people or piggish, overly-demanding people; I could see myself saying I don't want their business. As I have aged I have learned that life is too short to work with individuals that are too negative regardless of gender, religion, or sexual preference. When you have activists that are looking for the opportunity to sue - this has been common since Rosa Parks purposely got on the bus. For too long cultural myths are created to explain social changes. Activists purposely create what they perceive as sympathetic situations in order to go to court to achieve their objectives. How do business owners defend themselves and their businesses from getting caught up in an activists social vendetta?
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