consiglieri Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Your comment demonstrates that you don't believe the "counterintutive teaching," and that's the reason you think it demonstrates what you say it does. There was a time when I did believe this teaching from Church leaders; viz. that feeling the Holy Ghost was a greater spiritual experience than actually seeing Jesus face-to-face. I believed it because I trusted the leaders to tell me the truth. I believed it even though it really doesn't make any sense. And the more I thought about it, the less sense it made. How could feeling the Holy Ghost be a greater spiritual experience than seeing Jesus when seeing Jesus is what basically constitutes having your calling and election made sure? Receiving the Holy Ghost is what happens at the beginning of the journey; seeing Jesus at the end, and only after having demonstrated a willingness to serve him at all costs, per the words of Joseph Smith. So then, I was left to ponder why it is that Church leaders would say something so obviously wrong-headed. I mean, there must be a reason, right? And the reason I am left with is that they believe they have felt the Holy Ghost, but know they haven't seen Jesus, so what would be more natural than to privilege the lesser over the greater? It isn't rocket science. But it is disillusioning.
Mystery Meat Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 49 minutes ago, Boanerges said: I can only try to not let my jaw gape and shake my head that this comment. You can't really believe that's what Pres. Monson (or his designated tweeter) meant, can you? I don't know, but it is no more ridiculous or stupid to assume his comment meant what Rockpond originally took away from it. 1
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted March 22, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Seriously doubt President Monson made this tweet. It's pretty much understood that he is suffering from dementia And he only comes out of it twice a year to deliver coherent sermons at general conference? I think you may be the one with dementia. Edited March 22, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 5
Scott Lloyd Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 4 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I don't know, but it is no more ridiculous or stupid to assume his comment meant what Rockpond originally took away from it. Agreed. It was a silly instance of trying to read too much into a rhetorical comment.
ALarson Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 31 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Seriously doubt President Monson made this tweet. It's pretty much understood that he is suffering from dementia I think most agree that someone tweeted this for him, but that does not mean it doesn't reflect or represent Pres. Monson's thoughts. As far as the dementia rumors, I've heard and read them too (for the last few years actually). But then, I've seen him stand and give some very coherent and good remarks. So, even if he is suffering with moments of dementia or forgetfulness, overall he seems quite remarkable for his age. He did have a difficult moment last time, but pulled through it and did fine. It will be interesting to see if he speaks again in a couple of weeks at General Conference. I hope he'll be able to. 2
consiglieri Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 4 hours ago, rockpond said: This was an interesting tweet from President Monson: Quote From time to time the question has been posed, “If Jesus appeared to you today, what questions would you ask of Him?” My answer has always been, “I would not utter a word. I would listen to Him.” Down through the generations of time, the message from Jesus has been the same. To Peter by the shores of beautiful Galilee, He said, “Follow me.” To Philip of old came the call, “Follow me.” To Levi who sat at receipt of customs came the instruction, “Follow me.” And to you and to me, if we but listen, shall come that same beckoning invitation, “Follow me.” It's a beautiful message and I certainly agree with the sentiment. But doesn't his answer imply that Jesus doesn't and/or hasn't appeared to him? Wasn't Jesus the guy who said, "Ask and it shall be answered?"
canard78 Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I would agree, except to say I don't think it's something as mechanical as what you suggest. I think there is actually some person or persons putting some thought into it and posting the messages, all with President Monson's express approval in each and every instance, of course. It's not supposed to sound derogatory. There are apps/bits of software that are social media management tools that allow you to schedule a tweet and to monitor reach and likes etc. On your second paragraph... Are you suggesting that every piece of content on his social media accounts are individually and specifically reviewed and approved by President Monson? What makes you think that? Have you been told as much? 1
ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 54 minutes ago, canard78 said: On your second paragraph... Are you suggesting that every piece of content on his social media accounts are individually and specifically reviewed and approved by President Monson? What makes you think that? Have you been told as much? If it is a quote from a 20 year old talk given by Pres. Monson, I would imagine it doesn't need to be reviewed and approved. 2
CV75 Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 6 hours ago, rockpond said: This was an interesting tweet from President Monson: It's a beautiful message and I certainly agree with the sentiment. But doesn't his answer imply that Jesus doesn't and/or hasn't appeared to him? From this wording and in the context of a thought experiment, it is inconclusive (and irrelevant) whether the Lord has appeared to him. His own answer to this question could reflect his personal experience as much as project what he might do. But it definitely reveals his relationship with the Lord. 1
Stargazer Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 6 hours ago, rockpond said: This was an interesting tweet from President Monson: It's a beautiful message and I certainly agree with the sentiment. But doesn't his answer imply that Jesus doesn't and/or hasn't appeared to him? Of course not. He's simply saying that that is his standard reaction to the Savior. Listening. 2
Stargazer Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: There was a time when I did believe this teaching from Church leaders; viz. that feeling the Holy Ghost was a greater spiritual experience than actually seeing Jesus face-to-face. I believed it because I trusted the leaders to tell me the truth. I believed it even though it really doesn't make any sense. And the more I thought about it, the less sense it made. How could feeling the Holy Ghost be a greater spiritual experience than seeing Jesus when seeing Jesus is what basically constitutes having your calling and election made sure? Receiving the Holy Ghost is what happens at the beginning of the journey; seeing Jesus at the end, and only after having demonstrated a willingness to serve him at all costs, per the words of Joseph Smith. So then, I was left to ponder why it is that Church leaders would say something so obviously wrong-headed. I mean, there must be a reason, right? And the reason I am left with is that they believe they have felt the Holy Ghost, but know they haven't seen Jesus, so what would be more natural than to privilege the lesser over the greater? It isn't rocket science. But it is disillusioning. Disillusioning? Sure, if you're already disillusioned, and have lost the Spirit entirely. After 64 years on this planet, and 50 years of that a member of the Church (not that longevity is all that important), I've had sufficiently many strong manifestations of the Spirit, bringing me personal revelation beyond the bounds of my own expectations, that I no longer question this thing that you're disillusioned about. Among all those experiences, I cannot count any which included a visionary experience, or a visitation of the Savior. Yet I echo Elder Bruce R. McConkie in his final testimony, that when I finally do stand before the Lord in the flesh, I will not know better than I do now that He is the Christ and the Son of the Living God. I wish all of Father's children could have what I have today; unfortunately, some do not seek it, or have had it and lost it. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, canard78 said: It's not supposed to sound derogatory. There are apps/bits of software that are social media management tools that allow you to schedule a tweet and to monitor reach and likes etc. On your second paragraph... Are you suggesting that every piece of content on his social media accounts are individually and specifically reviewed and approved by President Monson? What makes you think that? Have you been told as much? I've long been in a position to observe President Monson and know how hands-on he can be. There is an editorial that appears on the back page of each issue of the Church News. That editorial is scrutinized each and every week by all three members of the First Presidency. They do this because of the longtime perception -- accurate or not -- that what appears in that space is binding on the Church and the First Presidency. If he is that careful about a thing such as the Church News Viewpoint, it stands to reason that he would be even more careful about anything that goes out over his name, be it social media or conventional media. Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
omni Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 4 hours ago, pogi said: It wouldn't change anything for me either way. I'm not sure why there exists an assumption that all prophets have seen Jesus in person. Is that a requirement that I am unaware of? My brother-in-law, who left the church 3 years ago, was with his wife and 2 kids hiking up Little Cottonwood canyon last year, when they ran into President Nelson on the trail. They didn't recognize him because he had a ball cap on. President Nelson actually stopped his family on the trail and said, "my, what a beautiful family, can I take your picture?" After some cordial words were exchanged, my bro-in-law actually asked President Nelson point blank if he has ever seen Jesus in person (My active sister-in-law was present to corroborate this). I don't remember the exact wording, but President Nelson said something to the effect, "No, we are witnesses of His...name, word, spirit, or something like that...only". I remember reading this experience on another forum. It's good to see it corroborated.
pogi Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, omni said: I remember reading this experience on another forum. It's good to see it corroborated. I shared this story in this forum a while back, that's probably what you are remembering. I am only corroborating my own story
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 56 minutes ago, ALarson said: If it is a quote from a 20 year old talk given by Pres. Monson, I would imagine it doesn't need to be reviewed and approved. Why would he not want to sign off on its being re-purposed, even if it had been published before?
mfbukowski Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 7 hours ago, rockpond said: This was an interesting tweet from President Monson: It's a beautiful message and I certainly agree with the sentiment. But doesn't his answer imply that Jesus doesn't and/or hasn't appeared to him? No more than "If you knew that Adam had conducted meetings at Adam-ondi- Ahman how would that change your life" implies that Adam actually HAS conducted that meeting. "What if". Hypothetical question to make you think. Thought experiment. 1
omni Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, pogi said: I shared this story in this forum a while back, that's probably what you are remembering. I am only corroborating my own story It was actually on one of the "other" boards and was posted by your BIL.
Wanderer7 Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 4 hours ago, pogi said: It wouldn't change anything for me either way. I'm not sure why there exists an assumption that all prophets have seen Jesus in person. Is that a requirement that I am unaware of? My brother-in-law, who left the church 3 years ago, was with his wife and 2 kids hiking up Little Cottonwood canyon last year, when they ran into President Nelson on the trail. They didn't recognize him because he had a ball cap on. President Nelson actually stopped his family on the trail and said, "my, what a beautiful family, can I take your picture?" After some cordial words were exchanged, my bro-in-law actually asked President Nelson point blank if he has ever seen Jesus in person (My active sister-in-law was present to corroborate this). I don't remember the exact wording, but President Nelson said something to the effect, "No, we are witnesses of His...name, word, spirit, or something like that...only". I'm not 100% convinced they could tell us even if they had. Either way, I agree that it's not a requirement.
mfbukowski Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 "Would you have stolen that candy if you knew Jesus was standing right there?" does not mean that Jesus was standing right there either. 1
mfbukowski Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: There was a time when I did believe this teaching from Church leaders; viz. that feeling the Holy Ghost was a greater spiritual experience than actually seeing Jesus face-to-face. I believed it because I trusted the leaders to tell me the truth. I believed it even though it really doesn't make any sense. And the more I thought about it, the less sense it made. How could feeling the Holy Ghost be a greater spiritual experience than seeing Jesus when seeing Jesus is what basically constitutes having your calling and election made sure? Receiving the Holy Ghost is what happens at the beginning of the journey; seeing Jesus at the end, and only after having demonstrated a willingness to serve him at all costs, per the words of Joseph Smith. So then, I was left to ponder why it is that Church leaders would say something so obviously wrong-headed. I mean, there must be a reason, right? And the reason I am left with is that they believe they have felt the Holy Ghost, but know they haven't seen Jesus, so what would be more natural than to privilege the lesser over the greater? It isn't rocket science. But it is disillusioning. Only if you were illusioned in the first place. I am sorry you were, and are.
Atheist Mormon Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 7 hours ago, rockpond said: This was an interesting tweet from President Monson: It's a beautiful message and I certainly agree with the sentiment. But doesn't his answer imply that Jesus doesn't and/or hasn't appeared to him? It would be unfair to put onus to President Monson since we do not have any verifiably contact with Jesus documented anywhere. Granted we have multiple numerous contact narratives especially Mary appearing to Fatima etc.
Cold Steel Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 Hmmmmm...there must be something deep he was trying to say. He said, “If Jesus appeared to you today, what questions would you ask of Him?” Clearly this implies that he saw Him yesterday...but not today. I think we're on to something here and we should keep discussing it! 🙋 1
sunstoned Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 9 hours ago, JAHS said: I don't know but I would guess that most of the Church prophets have not seen Jesus. It's not a requirement. They are called as special witnesses, so my guess is if they had seen Jesus, they would testify of it. What a great witness that would be to say in clear language that "I have seen the Christ". 2
JAHS Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: It would be unfair to put onus to President Monson since we do not have any verifiably contact with Jesus documented anywhere. Granted we have multiple numerous contact narratives especially Mary appearing to Fatima etc. Not with President Monson but a few church presidents of the past have related experiences of seeing Jesus: Here is an experience President Snow had as told by his granddaughter: “One evening while I was visiting grandpa Snow in his room in the Salt Lake Temple, I remained until the door keepers had gone and the night-watchmen had not yet come in, so grand-pa said he would take me to the main front entrance and let me out that way. He got his bunch of keys from his dresser. After we left his room and while we were still in the large corridor leading into the celestial room, I was walking several steps ahead of grand-pa when he stopped me and said: ‘Wait a moment, Allie, I want to tell you something. It was right here that the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me at the time of the death of President Woodruff. He instructed me to go right ahead and reorganize the First Presidency of the Church at once and not wait as had been done after the death of the previous presidents, and that I was to succeed President Woodruff.’ “Then grand-pa came a step nearer and held out his left hand and said: ‘He stood right here, about three feet above the floor. It looked as though He stood on a plate of solid gold.’ “Grand-pa told me what a glorious personage the Savior is and described His hands, feet, countenance and beautiful white robes, all of which were of such a glory of whiteness and brightness that he could hardly gaze upon Him. “Then he came another step nearer and put his right hand on my head and said: ‘Now, grand-daughter, I want you to remember that this is the testimony of your grand-father, that he told you with his own lips that he actually saw the Savior, here in the Temple, and talked with Him face to face.’” (Improvement Era, September 1933, under the title “An Experience of My Father’s” By LeRoi C. Snow:) President George Q. Cannon related: “I know that God lives. I know that Jesus lives; for I have seen Him. I know that this is the Church of God, and that it is founded on Jesus Christ, our Redeemer. I testify to you of these things as one who knows—as one of the Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ that can bear witness to you today in the presence of the Lord that He lives and that He will live, and will come to reign on the earth, to sway an undisputed sceptre.” (Delivered in the October 1896 General Conference and reported in The Deseret Weekly, October 31, 1896, vol. 53, p. 610.)
sunstoned Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 5 hours ago, consiglieri said: There was a time when I did believe this teaching from Church leaders; viz. that feeling the Holy Ghost was a greater spiritual experience than actually seeing Jesus face-to-face. I believed it because I trusted the leaders to tell me the truth. I believed it even though it really doesn't make any sense. And the more I thought about it, the less sense it made. How could feeling the Holy Ghost be a greater spiritual experience than seeing Jesus when seeing Jesus is what basically constitutes having your calling and election made sure? Receiving the Holy Ghost is what happens at the beginning of the journey; seeing Jesus at the end, and only after having demonstrated a willingness to serve him at all costs, per the words of Joseph Smith. So then, I was left to ponder why it is that Church leaders would say something so obviously wrong-headed. I mean, there must be a reason, right? And the reason I am left with is that they believe they have felt the Holy Ghost, but know they haven't seen Jesus, so what would be more natural than to privilege the lesser over the greater? It isn't rocket science. But it is disillusioning. I wish I could give you a rep point for this posting. It is excellent.
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