Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 "I go as a lamb to the slaughter". These are some of the final words Joseph spoke when leaving Nauvoo to go to Carthage to surrender to the authorities. The events that took place allowed Joseph and Hyrum to seal their testimony with their blood. As in states in D&C 135: 3, "In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated". Also in D&C 135: 6, (speaking of their deaths) John Taylor said that it (He too was shot three times) "cost the best blood of the nineteenth century". In Joseph Smith's testimony he was told that "...his name would be had for both good and evil among all the Nations of the earth". This promise is coming to pass in this Information Age, via the Internet his name is indeed known, and other events will occur that will help to open countries (all countries) will accept missionaries into their countries. Now, so far the events I have written about are not contested by anyone here. Or at least we can all agree with the narrative from which I quote. Of all the topics debated daily concerning early Church history, the death of the Prophet and polygamy are by far the favorites. There is an obsession among those in the counter-cult world that is not content to just let Joseph and Hyrum rest in peace. Also in D&C 135...this is an eye witness account, one in the D&C, and the other a testimony by Willard Richards. The debate goes on and on in an effort to deal with the logistics, of a small bedroom. Where was Joseph standing? Where was Hyrum? Where was John Taylor? John Taylor was shot and one the floor he could not have seen anything! Joseph was not trying to draw fire to the window to save his family and friends, he was running for his life! "Had for both good and evi", we bet ya. Below are some of the arguments... Joseph was not a martyr because someone gave him a gun. Joseph was a coward, for leaping to the window...martyrs don't run. Joseph was not killed because of his faith, he was killed for breaking a printing press. (Gotta love that one...harsh punishment) There are many more topics of debate, but I would hope that among us here others can give their take on the Prophets death. Who's right, who's wrong, and why? What I have found that the reason for all these debates over the 180 years, is to assassinate Joseph and his him and his name over and over. In short you must kill the messenger to destroy the message. Your thoughts please...
UtahTexan Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) martyr a person who is killed or who suffers greatly for a religion, cause, etc. Edited March 21, 2016 by CountryBoy
UtahTexan Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Hmmm...it would not let me type anything else after inserting that definition. I think it is clear that Joseph suffered greatly and was killed for his Religion. Where he stood, where he was in relation to others is not truly relevant. Logically, it would seem he ran to the window to save his companions...he had to know there was mob outside if so many were in the stairway. It does not seem logical to think Joseph thought he could escape that way. 1
Glenn101 Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 I am not even going to try to debate the subject with anyone again. The historical facts are pretty well know. Joseph and his companions were attacked by an armed mob while incarcerated. They had a single gun for protection. Joseph and Hyrum both were killed. Those who hold him to be a prophet mostly feel that he is a martyr for his religion. Those who do not are mostly inclined to feel less kindly towards Joseph. But none of that really matters. What matters is how God feels about Brother Joseph. That is what anyone needs to know. Glenn
stemelbow Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 I think there is a great deal of complexity in the events leading up to his death. For instance, he went as a lamb to the slaughter after having gone into hiding and then being convinced by his friends to turn himself in. the months leading up to June of that year were pretty crazy ones. It was evident that Joseph was shot from outside the window and it's been surmised the Hyrum so was shot from outside the window as well, a shot coming from a rifle--as if a sniper was well positioned to shoot. Joseph shot at the mob after Hyrum went down, but the mob at the door may not have been the ones who shot Hyrum. It's also suggested the Joseph was at the window blocking his friends from being shot. But that's hard to say. He then cried out for help from Masons in the crowd, which was interesting.
CA Steve Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Pa Pa said: "I go as a lamb to the slaughter". These are some of the final words Joseph spoke when leaving Nauvoo to go to Carthage to surrender to the authorities. The events that took place allowed Joseph and Hyrum to seal their testimony with their blood. As in states in D&C 135: 3, "In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated". Also in D&C 135: 6, (speaking of their deaths) John Taylor said that it (He too was shot three times) "cost the best blood of the nineteenth century". In Joseph Smith's testimony he was told that "...his name would be had for both good and evil among all the Nations of the earth". This promise is coming to pass in this Information Age, via the Internet his name is indeed known, and other events will occur that will help to open countries (all countries) will accept missionaries into their countries. Now, so far the events I have written about are not contested by anyone here. Or at least we can all agree with the narrative from which I quote. Of all the topics debated daily concerning early Church history, the death of the Prophet and polygamy are by far the favorites. There is an obsession among those in the counter-cult world that is not content to just let Joseph and Hyrum rest in peace. Also in D&C 135...this is an eye witness account, one in the D&C, and the other a testimony by Willard Richards. The debate goes on and on in an effort to deal with the logistics, of a small bedroom. Where was Joseph standing? Where was Hyrum? Where was John Taylor? John Taylor was shot and one the floor he could not have seen anything! Joseph was not trying to draw fire to the window to save his family and friends, he was running for his life! "Had for both good and evi", we bet ya. Below are some of the arguments... Joseph was not a martyr because someone gave him a gun. Joseph was a coward, for leaping to the window...martyrs don't run. Joseph was not killed because of his faith, he was killed for breaking a printing press. (Gotta love that one...harsh punishment) There are many more topics of debate, but I would hope that among us here others can give their take on the Prophets death. Who's right, who's wrong, and why? What I have found that the reason for all these debates over the 180 years, is to assassinate Joseph and his him and his name over and over. In short you must kill the messenger to destroy the message. Your thoughts please... I recently had a conversation with my father about this very issue. He excitedly sent me a portion of a talk, which my father claimed, stated that at any time while incarcerated at Carthage all Joseph or Hyrum had to do to go free was deny their testimony of the gospel. After reviewing the talk it was clear that wasn't what the speaker said. The speaker had said that Joseph and Hyrum never denied their testimony even when facing death, but nothing about choosing between freedom and death through such a choice. So when I pointed this out to my father and added that I didn't think such an opportunity existed at Carthage, that the men there were there to kill him and he never had that opportunity, was I participating in a counter-cult culture out to sully the name of the prophet? A big issue the church is currently facing is member encountering information that is contrary to what the member believes, such as plural marriage and violence in among 19th century saints. I think a debate about the historical facts of what happened at Carthage is a healthy thing. As more members become aware of these facts, even those that contradict some of the faithful mythology surrounding those events, there is less chance of those same members feeling like they have been misled. So stories like what my father was spreading, or of an unarmed Joseph Smith, or those that omit the fact Joseph fled west first, are not helpful in an internet age where contrary information is readily available. Edited March 21, 2016 by CA Steve
rodheadlee Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) If it's on the internet it must be true. http://www.inquisitr.com/1702452/ufo-nasa-sun/ I guess Brigham Young was right. Joseph Smith too :http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2014/07/23/crowdsourcing-the-search-for-alien-artifacts/#365bb1f22a1a Edited March 21, 2016 by rodheadlee
JAHS Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 7 hours ago, Pa Pa said: Joseph was not a martyr because someone gave him a gun. I think we can all agree that Jesus could be called a martyr, The defensive actions of Joseph Smith and his companions at the Carthage jail parallel what happened when chief priests came to arrest Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. Peter drew a sword and smote off the ear of the high priest's servant (Matthew 26:51; Mark 14:47 Luke 22:50; John 18:10) with one of the two swords that Jesus had allowed the apostles to bring with them from the upper room (Luke 22:38). Jesus allowed them to bring the swords for defense.
longview Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 14 minutes ago, JAHS said: I think we can all agree that Jesus could be called a martyr, Not quite. Jesus was repudiated by apostate Jews and killed because of their fears of Him upsetting their apple cart. Joseph was killed directly as a result of him proclaiming and defending the restoration of Christ's Church. 18 minutes ago, JAHS said: The defensive actions of Joseph Smith and his companions at the Carthage jail parallel what happened when chief priests came to arrest Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. More different than similar. Jesus knew He was fulfilling the foreshadowing (implied prophecy) of the Mosaic Law sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb. As Jesus walked on His way from the East Gate to the Garden of Gethsemane, He saw the blood of the Temple sacrifices running along the Kidron brook. He knew His Blood would soon mingle with that brook. He would not allow any more vigorous defense than that given by Peter. He knew it was absolutely essential that He be sacrificed for bringing about the ALL important Atonement. But Joseph and his party had no such certainties. They were relying on the good faith and word of Governor Ford. Joseph truly was a martyr because he was killed for his testimony and his work of the restoration.
JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Joseph was a martyr. Period. He was killed because the religion that he was the head over was hated over a variety of issues. The legal reason they used to actually jail him or the fact that he was provided a weapon for defense does not change the definition of martyr. He was killed because he was the prophet of the Mormon religion. Any excuse would have sufficed for the mob. The one chosen is irrelevant. Joseph was killed over his religion/cause. That is the definition of martyr. No other considerations matter. 2
ALarson Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 I know this has been much debated (threads on here and elsewhere). Was Joseph Smith a martyr? I personally do not believe it mattered whether or not Joseph had a gun and used it. I say, "good for him!" I do believe he was killed over his religious beliefs and practices. I believe the manner in which he lived polygamy (and was trying to keep it a secret) had a great deal to do with his murder. So yes, I believe he is a martyr. 2
Guest Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 1 hour ago, CA Steve said: I recently had a conversation with my father about this very issue. He excitedly sent me a portion of a talk, which my father claimed, stated that at any time while incarcerated at Carthage all Joseph or Hyrum had to do to go free was deny their testimony of the gospel. After reviewing the talk it was clear that wasn't what the speaker said. The speaker had said that Joseph and Hyrum never denied their testimony even when facing death, but nothing about choosing between freedom and death through such a choice. So when I pointed this out to my father and added that I didn't think such an opportunity existed at Carthage, that the men there were there to kill him and he never had that opportunity, was I participating in a counter-cult culture out to sully the name of the prophet? A big issue the church is currently facing is member encountering information that is contrary to what the member believes, such as plural marriage and violence in among 19th century saints. I think a debate about the historical facts of what happened at Carthage is a healthy thing. As more members become aware of these facts, even those that contradict some of the faithful mythology surrounding those events, there is less chance of those same members feeling like they have been misled. So stories like what my father was spreading, or of an unarmed Joseph Smith, or those that omit the fact Joseph fled west first, are not helpful in an internet age where contrary information is readily available. No, debate "is" a good thing. In the counter-cult world there is only one outcome that is acceptable; Joseph was a coward! When the debate starts and ends in the same place, there is usually little debate. It is healthy to speak of these things, so again, no you are not part of the counter-cult movement.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) I definitely feel that Joseph Smith was a martyr. He died for what he believed in. Edited March 21, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie 1
Wanderer7 Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 One of the interesting arguments some critics make is that Joseph isn't a martyr because martyrs die willingly for the faith. Willingly indeed... As if we should seek to die for our faith. There is a big difference between wanting to be killed and being unwilling to deny what we know to be true regardless of what men do to us. Do not the scripture teach that we are justified in defending ourselves? I personally would fight for my life and the lives of my loved ones and do everything I could to survive. It is the reason for being killed, not the manner or circumstances that defines a martyr. 1
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