Here's to the Losers!

[USU78]

49 minutes ago, Lost in Ohio said:

Ahh yes those stupid teachers! After all those can’t do teach right?

I usually just enjoy reading the posts here, and perhaps I've missed something, but after reading some of the stereotypes posted of the American teacher I feel compelled to reply.

I retired from the Navy in 2013 after 30 years in the nuclear submarine force and I now teach high school chemistry for a 2^nd career.  Since embarking on this career I have been reflecting a lot on public education and think I approach my observations from the perspective of an experienced 2^nd career professional coming from outside the traditional education enterprise.

When discussing the state of education in America it has become commonplace to broadly vilify American teachers as ineffective, unqualified, tenured leeches of society whose sole reason for existence is to feed off the taxpayer to support a bloated salary, and pension plan. These faceless pariahs care nothing for the students under their care and exist only in a self-serving environment in which their only motives are the ‘wealth’ and security their jobs provide them.  Teachers have become the villains for the ongoing catastrophe that we are told constitutes the condition of American public education.

In my opinion this false perception arises from two factors:

1) Our media, to drive ratings, focuses on failure and conflict, specifically the human failings of a minority of teachers, and

2) Punitive laws created by politicians so they can tell voters “see we did something!” As a result politicians with no education experience passed laws like NCLB, which created performance benchmarks, and school performance criteria that somehow assume that public education is like the free market and children a commodity and not individuals with a wide range of circumstances.  As if somehow enough negative performance incentives in the education ‘marketplace’ would fix the ‘problem.  These measures ensure all schools, and hence teachers, can eventually be classified as failures and that the cause for failure, itself a subjective term, can only be ascribed to teachers and administrations.  Thus we get impossible criteria by which we judge schools and teachers as failing and we get a caricature of the American educator as the villain.

It is always tempting to paint complex issues like public education in broad, simplistic strokes and while there is no doubt that as with any profession there are ineffective practitioners in the ranks of teachers, we should resist the urge to apply those extreme cases of malpractice, selected by a ratings driven media and further exploited by a political class pandering to voters who exploit these high profile examples, as though they represent the norm and not instead the rare exception.

A few things to consider when you hear how poor our teachers are and that our schools are failing:

1. In 2012 for the first time in the history of America more than 80% of 12th grade students graduated high school.  Improvements in graduation rates for minority students exceeded the national average.

2. In 2014 for the first time 20% of graduating students scored 3 or higher on AP exams.  In the last 11 years the number of students taking AP courses has doubled with more students earning honor grades in 2013 than took the exams in 2003.

3.  In 2014 only 18% of surveyed parents gave our schools an A or B. However when parents were asked to grade the specific schools their children actually attend 75% gave grades of A or B, and only 1% indicated they felt their schools were failing. This would seem to indicate that because we’ve been so consistently told our nation’s schools are failing we believe it.  However, when asked about our own experience with public schools we seem to feel quite differently.

4. Between 1979 an 2003 the number of English learners in our schools has increased 124%. Nearly 1 of 10 students is an English learner.  For the first time, 51% of public school students are eligible for free and reduced lunch. 13% of students receive some form of special education services.

Finally, let me assure that there is room for improvement in education, there always will be – as with any profession. Are there schools that struggle?  Of course.  Are there poor teachers? Undoubtedly. But I think our successes far outnumber our failures and our teachers are by and large sincere, moral professionals who seek to be the best they can be for their students and they achieve amazing results.  That has been my experience and observation as a 2nd career professional.

Before judging also consider that no other nation on the planet attempts to provide a free public education to such a diverse range of cultures and most importantly individual students. I’m no fan of coddling teachers, who do not do their jobs, but neither am I a fan of broad-brush mischaracterizations and misplaced politically driven punitive measures that fail to provide the real resources our schools need. I believe a fair, objective analysis of the nation’s public education and educators indicates that we are succeeding far more than we are failing.

So, when you hear our schools are failing, and our teachers poor, perhaps consider some of the good news and that our schools are in fact achieving some of the best results in our history.

Please forgive my post if I misinterpreted those comments directed towards teachers.

Sometimes it's awfully difficult being patient with someone who really ought to know better being so spectacularly wrong about a thread. Herr Hammer,  this is not about a nail.

[mfbukowski]

32 minutes ago, Lost in Ohio said:

 

Please forgive my post if I misinterpreted those comments directed towards teachers.

Honestly?  Yeah, it definitely struck a nerve obviously.

I think the fact that it was a teacher was pretty irrelevant.

But it seems the parable is also a test in itself, the test showing itself in our interpretations.  My ignoring the teaching aspect perhaps points to my tendency to see the symbolic over the literal.  In fact I remember a conversation with a high school teacher about color symbolism in the Great Gatsby similar to this one where I saw the "symbolism" as "literal" .  I drive my wife crazy because I never know what she is talking about because I am always imagining two or three levels of what she might be saying as what she is "really" saying.  

Just my odd brain I guess!

[Lost in Ohio]

15 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Sometimes it's awfully difficult being patient with someone who really ought to know better being so spectacularly wrong about a thread. Herr Hammer,  this is not about a nail.

I wasn't replying to the original topic of the thread, but rather to a few specific comments directed at teachers.  In hindsight I should have quoted them.  My bad. It's nice to know I have your patience though. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Lost in Ohio
misspelling

[Lost in Ohio]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Honestly?  Yeah, it definitely struck a nerve obviously.

I think the fact that it was a teacher was pretty irrelevant.

But it seems the parable is also a test in itself, the test showing itself in our interpretations.  My ignoring the teaching aspect perhaps points to my tendency to see the symbolic over the literal.  In fact I remember a conversation with a high school teacher about color symbolism in the Great Gatsby similar to this one where I saw the "symbolism" as "literal" .  I drive my wife crazy because I never know what she is talking about because I am always imagining two or three levels of what she might be saying as what she is "really" saying.  

Just my odd brain I guess!

I'm sorry I didn't make clear that I was't replying to the original post, but to a few of the comments I felt were directed at teachers.  

[ERayR]

4 hours ago, Valentinus said:

I could have clarified but considering the OP, that isn't necessary.

It always helps to be precise.

[Mars]

@Lost in Ohio

I also offer my apologies if I offended.  I have had some craptastic teachers and some amazing teachers.  I didn't think the parable was about the 'sad state' of public education, but my quip about 'sad state' of public education isn't meant to say that anyone who undertakes the teaching profession is worthless.  I realize that public policy, lazy teachers, family break down, cultural and language barriers, and general cultural opposition to being learned (it's still a pejorative to call someone a nerd, I don't care what anyone says) all play a part.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Ahab said:

You want the answers I would give to you on this board right now or the answers I have in my mind?

And do you have any bonus questions???

For now I'll just say "what apple?" and "you can't always get what you want but if try sometimes, you might just find, you get what you need"

 

"We don't need no education

We don't need no thought control

No dark sarcasm in the classroom

Teacher!!  Leave them kids alone"

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, Lost in Ohio said:

I'm sorry I didn't make clear that I was't replying to the original post, but to a few of the comments I felt were directed at teachers.  

OK, makes sense.

[The Nehor]

And to go along with this spirit of reconciliation I will amend my statement and say that only SOME teachers should be thrown into the sea.

[BCSpace]

Quote

No, Johnny,” his teacher sighed, “it was the Greeks who won the war.”

That's what the teacher read from the back of the book where it gives answers to the odd numbered questions.  So the teacher must be right.

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by BCSpace
Correction

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Lost in Ohio said:

I wasn't replying to the original topic of the thread, but rather to a few specific comments directed at teachers.  In hindsight I should have quoted them.  My bad. It's nice to know I have your patience though. 

Let's all abandon the thread jack, shall we? Let's return to the discussion 

[Damien the Leper]

3 hours ago, ERayR said:

It always helps to be precise.

Hi ERayR!

[Meadowchik]

13 hours ago, Mars said:

general thoughts:

it's too labored, insightful about the human condition and the state of conflict, and entrenched in the one setting of the trojan war to be a commentary on the sad state of public education.

i think it's a commentary on who really 'wins' when we fight about something as weighty as issues of God, faith, family, mores, and morals.  every participant lost something in the trojan war.  no one really 'won,' but some people (like the educator) clearly thought that on the face of it, the Greeks did.  i think it's getting at the cost of war, rather than who actually comes away the victor.

You could say the short answer is the artificially-imposed binary analysis while the long one is based on a fuller understanding of the connected nature of everything.

Moral of the comparison: accept entropy and adapt intelligently. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, BCSpace said:

That's what the teacher read from the back of the book where it gives answers to the odd numbered questions.  So the teacher must be right.

 

Because a human-inscribed answer to a human-written question will lose none of the relevance needed to understand war and its consequenes, right?

It's fascinating to me that while words and scholarship are tools for manipulating the world, they're also a way to escape it. Nothing wrong with escaping momentarily, as long as we do come back and line up the words to experience and use them to improve and at the very least SEE the actual world. 

Or in other words, tools are made for our use, not us (or our kids) for tools.

Give the kid an A, dang it!

 

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

"We don't need no education

We don't need no thought control

No dark sarcasm in the classroom

Teacher!!  Leave them kids alone"

All in all it's just another brick in the wall. 

[toon]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Literalism misses the implications of the event's significance totally.  Similar to science vs religion.  Alternate views of reality colliding.

Good point.  It was the Achaeans.

[USU78]

2 hours ago, toon said:

Good point.  It was the Achaeans.

Badumbum

[mnn727]

Lost in Ohio I agree with all of your points but find that 1 is not something to brag about:

Quote

For the first time, 51% of public school students are eligible for free and reduced lunch.

Its not the teachers problem, its the politicians problem, but 51% is way too high when I would bet 90% of their parents have at least 1, if not more, of the following: cable TV, smart phones, designer clothes, tattoos, drink/smoke/drugs, late model car, etc.  People need to live within their means and that means putting their children first at times. If you can't afford kids, you should not have kids.

[USU78]

7 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Lost in Ohio I agree with all of your points but find that 1 is not something to brag about:

Its not the teachers problem, its the politicians problem, but 51% is way too high when I would bet 90% of their parents have at least 1, if not more, of the following: cable TV, smart phones, designer clothes, tattoos, drink/smoke/drugs, late model car, etc.  People need to live within their means and that means putting their children first at times. If you can't afford kids, you should not have kids.

Please ignore the hijacker, mnn.  This is not a thread about the US educational system.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Please ignore the hijacker, mnn.  This is not a thread about the US educational system.

I agree. We should get back to the original parable. So if you could meet up with any of the Greek deities which would you choose. While Aphrodite is tempting I think I would go for Artemis. More down to earth.

[mfbukowski]

Yeah, but we deal with Eris daily.  We are old buddies.

And the Greeks were philosophers battling Eris with their philosophy- battling matter unorganized.

So I suppose the Greeks won, but the battle continues.

I think we are doing much better than the Greeks did, today.

Besides, everyone knows the Trojans are USC.  And what do you see from every mountain top around here?  You See LA.

Edited March 16, 2016 by mfbukowski

[USU78]

Eris is indeed the Adversary. Kafka wrote brilliantly about her apples. Teachers are agents of the Coercer. Don't let the Coercer, who is the Adversary, beat TRVTH out of you. 

[USU78]

49 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I agree. We should get back to the original parable. So if you could meet up with any of the Greek deities which would you choose. While Aphrodite is tempting I think I would go for Artemis. More down to earth.

My choice is Paris' choice. 

Verweile doch, Du bist so schoen!

Edited March 16, 2016 by USU78
Goethe

[strappinglad]

The question in the OP was obviously multiple choice. 'The Greeks' was the answer closest to being correct. ' none of the above ' was not a given choice. Come on folks, get with the paradigm.

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

Please ignore the hijacker, mnn.  This is not a thread about the US educational system.

No, just about how bad the teacher messed up by not recognizing that the answer she said was the correct answer was really in TRVTH not the correct answer at all AND by not expounding on the brilliant answer given by one of her students. 

Where did she go to school anyway?  Who taught her that was the correct answer?  Who in their right mind could possibly think the Greeks won?

Btw, My Big Fat Greek Wedding #2 is coming out soon to a theatre near you so be on guard against requests to go see it!!!