Do you really believe any sins are actually unforgivable?

[JLHPROF]

The "Does God still love Lucifer" thread got me thinking about the extent of the atonement and repentance.

I understand the danger in judging someone else's sins as being unforgivable or outside the atonement.  It is not really our place to judge.
But from a strictly doctrinal perspective the scriptures do speak of a limit to the atonement and of sins that are unforgivable.

On the other thread TSS seems to be claiming that although he never will, even Satan could repent.  I reject that idea completely.

So before I start quoting random scriptures and stories what do posters think?  Do we truly believe EVERY sin can be forgiven if repented of?  Does the atonement cover EVERY possible sin?  Can that forgiveness be 100%?
What sins do you personally consider unforgivable?

[rodheadlee]

Yes, there are unforgivable sins. D&C 84: 

 39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

  40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

  41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

[rodheadlee]

D&C 132:  27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

[VideoGameJunkie]

37 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes, there are unforgivable sins. D&C 84: 

 39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

  40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

  41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

So every apostate is eternally screwed?

[rodheadlee]

2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

So every apostate is eternally screwed?

I didn't write the scripture. I am certainly open to discussion on it. What do you think?

[VideoGameJunkie]

5 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I didn't write the scripture. I am certainly open to discussion on it. What do you think?

According to the scripture then yes apostates should have a lot to worry about.

[Jeanne]

There are apostates who are exceedingly good people. Turning away from the church (or said covenants) does not mean the falling of morals, charity, or basic human good qualities.

[JAHS]

4 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

According to the scripture then yes apostates should have a lot to worry about.

Apparently the scriptures do say there are a few sins that are unforgivable, but of course God is the final judge as to who has really committed such a sin. I don't think we could look at any one person and conclude that his sin is unforgivable and therefore we must assume that there is a chance for anyone to be forgiven. 

"Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— (D&C 76: 34-36)

"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. 
He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open; 
he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; "
(Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse)

There are very few people in history who fulfill the above requirements for no forgiveness.

[VideoGameJunkie]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

Apparently the scriptures do say there are a few sins that are unforgivable, but of course God is the final judge as to who has really committed such a sin. I don't think we could look at any one person and conclude that his sin is unforgivable and therefore we must assume that there is a chance for anyone to be forgiven. 

"Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— (D&C 76: 34-36)

"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. 
He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open; 
he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; "
(Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse)

There are very few people in history who fulfill the above requirements for no forgiveness.

I wasn't saying apostates would become Sons of Perdition, I was just stating they probably won't make the Celestial Kingdom and anything short of exaltation is considered damned in progress.

[Boanerges]

I do not believe there are sins that are unforgivable. I think it is humans who put degrees on sins, not God. God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. That does not seem to quantify lying or stealing as opposed to rape or murder, it would seem that God cannot abide any sin. Therefore, the atonement covers all sin - with the caveat of repentance. I do believe some sins are more difficult to repent of and we may not be able to fully repent of some sins in this life - but that's where grace and the atonement come in.

For Satan and the Sons of Perdition, I think their sins are forgivable but they individually cannot be forgiven for some reason I do not understand (just as I don't understand how the atonement actually works).

[JLHPROF]

Rather than focusing on the end state of these people (damnation, perdition, etc), can we please focus the conversation on their ability to repent or lack thereof?

32 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Apparently the scriptures do say there are a few sins that are unforgivable, but of course God is the final judge as to who has really committed such a sin. I don't think we could look at any one person and conclude that his sin is unforgivable and therefore we must assume that there is a chance for anyone to be forgiven. 

"Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— (D&C 76: 34-36)

"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. 
He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open; 
he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; "
(Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse)

There are very few people in history who fulfill the above requirements for no forgiveness.

Agreed, but is it really limited to this?
Rodheadlee correctly noted that scripture in addition to "denying the Holy Ghost or Christ" that "shedding of innocent blood" and those that break certain covenants are also in the same boat.

1. Denied the Holy Spirit and the Only Begotten Son.
2. Shedding of innocent blood.
3. Breaking of certain covenants.

Scripture specifically names these as unforgivable.  So can they be repented of?  Unforgivable would mean they cannot.
I think we sometimes apply the atonement to these sins out of kindness, but while we are not the judges of individuals, I think doctrinally we should recognize that the atonement doesn't cover them.



 

[JAHS]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Rather than focusing on the end state of these people (damnation, perdition, etc), can we please focus the conversation on their ability to repent or lack thereof?

Agreed, but is it really limited to this?
Rodheadlee correctly noted that scripture in addition to "denying the Holy Ghost or Christ" that "shedding of innocent blood" and those that break certain covenants are also in the same boat.

1. Denied the Holy Spirit and the Only Begotten Son.
2. Shedding of innocent blood.
3. Breaking of certain covenants.

Scripture specifically names these as unforgivable.  So can they be repented of?  Unforgivable would mean they cannot.
I think we sometimes apply the atonement to these sins out of kindness, but while we are not the judges of individuals, I think doctrinally we should recognize that the atonement doesn't cover them.



 

With regards to shedding of innocent blood we can look at the case of David. According to Joseph Smith, David will not be forgiven unless he goes through hell first, but he will not be left there: 
"A murderer, for instance, one that sheds inocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought forgiveness at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell: he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell." (See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 339 and Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:25-27)

President Joseph F. Smith said:
"But even David, though guilty of adultery and murder of Uriah, obtained the promise that his soul should not be left in hell, which means, as I understand it, that even he shall escape the second death." (Gospel Doctrine p. 434)

President Marion G. Romney said:
"David, on the other hand, though highly favored of the Lord (he was, in fact, referred to as a man after God's own heart), yielded to temptation. His unchastity led to murder, and as a consequence, he lost his families and his exaltation (see D&C 132:39)." (April 1979)

So the way I understand it, a person who sheds innocent blood "shall not have forgiveness in this world , nor in the world to come"(D&C 42:18). The refusal of forgiveness refered to here means that the murderer can not repent and receive forgiveness through the atonement of Christ. They can not be forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them. They will go to hell (spirit prison)to be punnished for it. However, a person may eventually be able to receive another type of forgiveness which requires paying the price by suffering in spirit prison for the murder. Then they may be able to be rescued from hell, as in the case of David, and still obtain some degree of glory(but not exaltation) after the final judgement, depending on how good they were during the rest of their life.

[UtahTexan]

Well....this particular question is way above my pay grade.  I will not worry about unforgivable sins.  At least, not until I am given the authority to forgive or not......

 

Edited March 13, 2016 by CountryBoy

[VideoGameJunkie]

Everyone can at least try to repent and in God's eyes what really matters is that we try and make a sincere effort. The people that will never be forgiven are those who would never attempt to repent.

[Sky]

I'm aware of only two sins that are considered unpardonable - denying the Holy Ghost and the shedding of innocent blood.  Exactly what this means, I'm not entirely sure.  It is impossible for me to judge who might or might not be in this category.  I'll leave that up to God. 

I do know this: repentance is available to us all, with very few exceptions.  We all need the Atonement, and repentance is how we access that gift from our Savior.  Even those who have broken covenants can come back, and we try to encourage them to do that.  The process may be long and hard.  It may also involve Church discipline, but forgiveness is possible.

I do know of some people in my life who seem to have lost the ability and the will to repent, but repentance is still there for them too, if they choose it.  All we can do is love them and pray for them.  Some may still choose to come back.          

[VideoGameJunkie]

39 minutes ago, Sky said:

I'm aware of only two sins that are considered unpardonable - denying the Holy Ghost and the shedding of innocent blood.  Exactly what this means, I'm not entirely sure.  It is impossible for me to judge who might or might not be in this category.  I'll leave that up to God. 

I do know this: repentance is available to us all, with very few exceptions.  We all need the Atonement, and repentance is how we access that gift from our Savior.  Even those who have broken covenants can come back, and we try to encourage them to do that.  The process may be long and hard.  It may also involve Church discipline, but forgiveness is possible.

I do know of some people in my life who seem to have lost the ability and the will to repent, but repentance is still there for them too, if they choose it.  All we can do is love them and pray for them.  Some may still choose to come back.          

That goes along with what I said. Heavenly Father wants us to try and make an effort to show we love Him and are repentant and then the wonderful Atonement can get to work.

[strappinglad]

What does it mean to" shed  innocent blood " ? In the case of David and Uriah , Uriah seemed to be an honorable soldier  and yet he was not ' innocent  ' himself as undoubtedly he had killed others in his military profession. He was a Hittite and as such possibly a mercenary. Was the Captain of the guard complicit in Uriah's death? Were the soldiers who followed the order to withdraw from Uriah also complicit ? Was the death of Uriah not attributed to the enemy soldier(s) who actually killed Uriah ? To me, the connection between denying the Holy Ghost and the shedding of innocent blood is tenuous for many who have killed innocents have not had any knowledge of the HG unless there is come connection with the Light of Christ which is given to all men.

[The Nehor]

The atonement is infinite. There are no sins that are unforgivable by nature. There are sins that so damage the human committing them that they will never be able to seek forgiveness because the impulse to repent is killed. Sinning against the Holy Ghost is one. Shedding innocent blood, I believe, is consenting to sinning the only innocent blood on this earth. In other words consenting to the death of Christ. Murder is hard to gain repentance for but it is possible and even those who commit it and are not fully forgiven can find forgiveness and a kingdom of glory after a time in hell paying for their sins.

[Bobbieaware]

 

20 hours ago, Jeanne said:

There are apostates who are exceedingly good people. Turning away from the church (or said covenants) does not mean the falling of morals, charity, or basic human good qualities.

The people of whom you speak are not apostates in the truest sense of that word. The only way one can become a genuine apostate is that he or she must KNOW for sure, by the revelatory power of the Holy Ghost, that Jesus Christ is the Savior and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his one and only true Church: and then, after having gained this sure spiritual witness from the Holy Ghosy, the authentic apostate wholly turns away therefrom and becomes fully allied with the devil. There are many who leave the Church who never really had this sure spiritual knowledge of Christ and of the Restored Gospel. Therefore, upon their departure from the Church, the light of Christ does not wholly withdraw from them and for this reason they continue to retain the capacity to be good people. In stark contrast to to those semi-converts who leave the Church but continue to be good people, abject apostates (those who commit the unpardonable sin) hate all that is good and if it were possible they would attempt to murder God and extinguish all he stands for.

In the pre-earth life, Lucifer rebelled against God while standing in his immediate presence and looking him straight in the face. Similarly, the authentic apostate on earth must turn totally against God while standing, as it were, in the light of spiritual noonday.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, strappinglad said:

What does it mean to" shed  innocent blood " ? In the case of David and Uriah , Uriah seemed to be an honorable soldier  and yet he was not ' innocent  ' himself as undoubtedly he had killed others in his military profession. He was a Hittite and as such possibly a mercenary. Was the Captain of the guard complicit in Uriah's death? Were the soldiers who followed the order to withdraw from Uriah also complicit ? Was the death of Uriah not attributed to the enemy soldier(s) who actually killed Uriah ? To me, the connection between denying the Holy Ghost and the shedding of innocent blood is tenuous for many who have killed innocents have not had any knowledge of the HG unless there is come connection with the Light of Christ which is given to all men.

The institute manuals teach that shedding innocent blood is a sin against Christ in that He is the only innocent blood that has ever lived, and someone who 'sheds' His blood is someone who knows exactly who He is and is happy He was killed-someone who would seek for His death if it were possible to kill Him again.

[Teancum]

10 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

So every apostate is eternally screwed?

It depends how you define altogether turning away.

Joseph Smith said:

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Unpardonable_Sin

 

No man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life, until he receives the Holy Ghost" (TPJS, p. 357). To commit the unpardonable sin, a person "must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him…. he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it" (TPJS, p. 358; cf. Heb. 10:26-29).

If people have such knowledge and willfully turn altogether away, it is a sin against light, a sin against the Holy Ghost, and figuratively "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:4-6; D&C 76:35). Such remain as though there were no Atonement, except that they shall be resurrected from the dead (Alma 11:41). RODNEY TURNER

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

 

The people of whom you speak are not apostates in the truest sense of that word. The only way one can become a genuine apostate is that he or she must KNOW for sure, by the revelatory power of the Holy Ghost, that Jesus Christ is the Savior and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his one and only true Church: and then, after having gained this sure spiritual witness from the Holy Ghosy, the authentic apostate wholly turns away therefrom and becomes fully allied with the devil. Thete are many who leave the Church who never really had this sure spiritual knowledge of Christ and the Restored Gospel. Therefore, upon their departure from the Church, the light of Christ does not wholly withdraw them and for this reason they continue to retain the capacity to be good people. In stark contrast to to those semi-converts who leave the Church but continue to be good people, abject apostates (those who commit the unpardonable sin) hate all that is good and if it were possible they would attempt to murder God and extinguish all he stands for.

In the pre-earth life, Lucifer rebelled against God while standing in his immediate presence and looking him straight in the face. Similarly, the authentic apostate on earth must turn totally against God while standing, as it were, in the light of spiritual noonday.

Thanks for your reply.  I am understanding your perspective better.  This makes more sense in LDS doctrine. 

[thesometimesaint]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The "Does God still love Lucifer" thread got me thinking about the extent of the atonement and repentance.

I understand the danger in judging someone else's sins as being unforgivable or outside the atonement.  It is not really our place to judge.
But from a strictly doctrinal perspective the scriptures do speak of a limit to the atonement and of sins that are unforgivable.

On the other thread TSS seems to be claiming that although he never will, even Satan could repent.  I reject that idea completely.

So before I start quoting random scriptures and stories what do posters think?  Do we truly believe EVERY sin can be forgiven if repented of?  Does the atonement cover EVERY possible sin?  Can that forgiveness be 100%?
What sins do you personally consider unforgivable?

Reject it all you want. 

[janderich]

I would generally agree with a few people here that all sins can be forgiven. The problem is that there are some who have inhabited this earth who will willfully reject the gospel plan in full light and knowledge. These are they who we term "Sons of Perdition". Having complete knowledge of the holy spirit which they posses and understanding fully what Christ has done, they reject it. Of such it is said, "For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift....That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgement. Therefore, they must remain filthy still. (D&C 88:33,35). They cannot be sanctified because they will not accept the gift. 

On of the most plain statements I have ever come across on the mater is from Spencer W. Kimball, who said, "In the relms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness where there is no light Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them is an agent of growth and development (The Miracle of Forgivness, p 125, italics added). These, and only these, will reject the gospel plan and not be forgiven in the due time of the Lord.

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, strappinglad said:

What does it mean to" shed  innocent blood " ? In the case of David and Uriah , Uriah seemed to be an honorable soldier  and yet he was not ' innocent  ' himself as undoubtedly he had killed others in his military profession. He was a Hittite and as such possibly a mercenary. Was the Captain of the guard complicit in Uriah's death? Were the soldiers who followed the order to withdraw from Uriah also complicit ? Was the death of Uriah not attributed to the enemy soldier(s) who actually killed Uriah ? To me, the connection between denying the Holy Ghost and the shedding of innocent blood is tenuous for many who have killed innocents have not had any knowledge of the HG unless there is come connection with the Light of Christ which is given to all men.

How about abortion?  Blood doesn't come much more innocent.

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

The institute manuals teach that shedding innocent blood is a sin against Christ in that He is the only innocent blood that has ever lived, and someone who 'sheds' His blood is someone who knows exactly who He is and is happy He was killed-someone who would seek for His death if it were possible to kill Him again.

That's an interesting interpretation - that the only innocent blood would be Christ's.  Not sure I agree with that.