JLHPROF Posted March 14, 2016 Author Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Mars said: how do you reconcile a sin that is unable to be subsumed by the Atonement with the idea that the Atonement is infinite? the attribute "forgivable: yes / no" to a sin has less to do with the idea that the sin is just too great to be covered, or that commission of the sin wasn't part of the contract between sinner and Redeemer, but rather to do with the fact that the person who commits that kind of sin would never want to repent. i support this conclusion with the Gospel themes that describe how we progress or regress in spiritual knowledge until we control the natural man. i don't believe it's possible to have an infinite Atonement *and* sins that are beyond its reach. You'll have to ask Christ. He is the one who said which sins his atonement wouldn't cover. Also, there is no reason to define infinite to mean infinite in every way - infinite in duration? in scope? in application? We know it isn't infinite in application - that was Lucifer's plan. There are conditions on it. Edited March 14, 2016 by JLHPROF
Mars Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You'll have to ask Christ. He is the one who said which sins his atonement wouldn't cover. in your mind, then, there is no other way to read the text on the subject? sins that are unforgivable are such because no matter how badly one may attempt to repent after the fact, that's it? game over? no getting it all back? like David? edit: i see you edited your post. using the word infinite in the context of alma 34; that the only way you could overcome the sins of the world is to have an infinite Atonement. infinite in that it's enough for everyone everywhere to repent of all their sins, if they so choose. not infinite in application because we can't be saved in our sins. which is exactly why i think the way i do: the kind of person who wants to deny the Holy Ghost and pure knowledge out of spite is the kind of person who will not want to repent. it's not a question of the Atonement not covering certain sins out of Plan of Salvation-esque contract agreement between God, Jesus, and the rest of us, or that Jesus didn't suffer for that particular sin, or that sin being too great (and I don't even know how I'd define 'great' in this context) that the Atonement can't subsume it... it's a question of someone wanting to repent, or not. i am trying to understand your position. are you saying "ask Jesus, He's the one who said the things I read in the Scriptures and clearly I understand exactly what he meant and you don't"? Edited March 14, 2016 by Mars 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 David has already been forgiven. He will not be in Hell forever. Whether he is in Hell right now is unknown.
JLHPROF Posted March 14, 2016 Author Posted March 14, 2016 14 minutes ago, Mars said: i am trying to understand your position. are you saying "ask Jesus, He's the one who said the things I read in the Scriptures and clearly I understand exactly what he meant and you don't"? I'm saying Christ doesn't call things unforgivable on a whim. If Christ says something is unforgivable, I don't see that he is going to forgive it? What reading provides for an alternative?
Mars Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) 51 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'm saying Christ doesn't call things unforgivable on a whim. If Christ says something is unforgivable, I don't see that he is going to forgive it? What reading provides for an alternative? first off, i'm not ready to die on the hill of semantics. secondly, it's interesting to me to understand what is unforgivable and why. the Gospels don't call it an 'unforgivable' sin. the Lord says that there won't be forgiveness in this world nor in the life to come. Alma called it unpardonable in Alma 39. the Savior was not, in my mind, describing the attribute for the sin. He was describing what happens to people who do it. the alternative comes from heb 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. it's their attitude that makes it unforgivable. they will not repent. "will not" both in terms of predicting the future and in terms of what they are choosing to do. it comes to the same thing, perhaps. but i'm curious as to why it's unforgivable. what about that sin makes it unforgivable? the reading suggests to me that it's the attitude of the sinner refusing to repent. vessels of wrath. it's ok if you disagree, but i still haven't figured out specifically from your take why it's unforgivable. where the repentance process breaks down. from what you've said, i think you're taking a plain reading. there is no forgiveness for this sin, ergo, Christ won't forgive it no matter what the sinner does later on. is that it? Edited March 14, 2016 by Mars 1
Gray Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Boanerges said: But in the eternal scheme of things this life isn't even a drop in the bucket. And yet everything reportedly hinges on this life. And children only get to be children once. 1
Gray Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 2 hours ago, bluebell said: I agree. But we don't have to trust whether or not someone has repented. No one will be able to fool God, and His opinion is the only one that matters. Being able to be forgiven by God is a separate issue from being forgiven by someone else. We are commanded to forgive regardless of whether or not the offender has repented. God is not bound by that commandment. Yes, and forgiveness helps us more than it helps those who we forgive. Still, very challenging. Especially since a child molester, even apparently repented, can never be trusted again. 1
Boanerges Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, Gray said: And yet everything reportedly hinges on this life. Or does it?
Gray Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, Boanerges said: Or does it? Who knows? But acting as if what happens in a human lifespan is less important because it doesn't last forever is a way to brush off just about any atrocity or abuse, and so is not the right way to think of it. IMO.
Ahab Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 The sins that are unforgivable, so to speak, are unforgivable because of some reason. Some reason that all of those unforgivable sins have in common, I think. To deny the Holy Ghost is to deny what he says while knowing what he is saying, and I think the reason that is unforgivable is because that is, in essence, to deny what would otherwise bring about forgiveness or cleansing if what he said had been accepted. For example, if the Holy Ghost were to tell person A that he should not commit adultery or murder or some other thing he should not do and he denied what the Holy Ghost told him not to do and chose to do it anyway then he would have denied the Holy Ghost as well as committed a sin the Holy Ghost had told him that he should not commit. And such would be unforgivable, for as long as person A continued to deny what the Holy Ghost told him. BUT, if that person later accepted what the Holy Ghost had told him and realized that he should not have done what he did then he would no longer be denying what the Holy Ghost told him even though he would have already denied the Holy Ghost and committed that sin which the Holy Ghost had told him that he should not commit. He denied at first and maybe for a long time after but then later accepted, no longer denying the Holy Ghost. So now what, do you think? Wouldn't he then be repenting of denying the Holy Ghost and no longer denying? And couldn't he then be forgiven because he was no longer denying? The sin of killing an innocent person has to do with murdering someone the "murderer" knows is an innocent person, I think. So what about all the women who terminate their pregnancy while not knowing they are killing an actual person, much less an innocent person, commonly because they don't think it's a person until it is born or they just aren't thinking much about it? And what about when a state or federal government official executes a person who was convicted of murder even though that person was innocent of that crime, perhaps being convicted because he was black and the jury was prejudiced while the prosecutor was biased in his views? It can get fairly complicated in some situations, and frankly I'm glad that I get to forgive all men, as my Lord has commanded, regardless of what I believe anyone has ever done.
CV75 Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 On 3/12/2016 at 9:02 PM, JLHPROF said: What sins do you personally consider unforgivable? Nat King Cole said it best: Unforgivable That's what you are, Unforgivable Tho' near or far. Like a song of love that clings to me, How the thought of you does things to me. Never before Has someone been more... Unforgivable In every way, And forever more That's how you'll stay. That's why, darling, it's incredible That someone so Unforgivable Thinks that I am Unforgivable, too. 1
Ahab Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 Looks like somebody forgot the words to unforgettable.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 Why was Cain condemned to Perdition, when after he killed Abel God protected him with a mark so no one would kill him, and he had children after his murder.
JLHPROF Posted March 14, 2016 Author Posted March 14, 2016 8 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Why was Cain condemned to Perdition, when after he killed Abel God protected him with a mark so no one would kill him, and he had children after his murder. What do you mean? Did the mark and posterity preclude perdition in the future?
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: What do you mean? Did the mark and posterity preclude perdition in the future? I thought killing Abel was what made him Perdition.
JLHPROF Posted March 15, 2016 Author Posted March 15, 2016 3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I thought killing Abel was what made him Perdition. It was, at least in part.
Eek! Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 On 3/12/2016 at 8:02 PM, JLHPROF said: Do we truly believe EVERY sin can be forgiven if repented of? Does the atonement cover EVERY possible sin? Can that forgiveness be 100%? What sins do you personally consider unforgivable? God is the Judge, not the Executioner. This implies that He will decide what gets enforced to the fullest letter of the law. The letter of the law killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. (2 Corinthians 3:6) Personally, I place no limitations on the healing power of the Atonement. We have seen plenty of harsh, severe language in the scriptures coming down on the side of inevitable eternal damnation for certain sins, as has been cited in this thread However there is good reason to believe that such severe language is actually used for effect, rather than being literally true, as witnessed by D&C 19:6-12: 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory. 8. Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. 9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. 10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore— 11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. 12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment. In other words, God has been exaggerating the severity and duration of punishment “that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men,” and NOT because “eternal punishment” was the highest level of truth on the subject. We have the example of Jesus asking the Father to pardon those responsible for killing him, which act is singled out elsewhere as being an “unpardonable” sin. Would He have asked his Father for something that He knew was impossible, and/or against his Father's will? Let's consider a hypothetical situation: Suppose someone has committed one or more of these “unpardonable sins”, and his Father still wants him back. Do you think his Father would be incapable of figuring out a way that he could come back? Do you think his Father would give up on him, when He literally has all the time in this world and all future ones? If it was your son or daughter who had made a terrible mistake, would you give up on them? Some parents do and some don't, so I'm not saying the answer is a given. But there are parents who would never give up on their children, and it is quite possible that our Father is one of them.
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