Popular Post california boy Posted March 7, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 7, 2016 With all due respect to Mystery Meat, I think he asked the wrong question. Of course we know the answer the the question about gay members that most TBM will give. "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it" or some variation of that. If you want to have a real discussion about how much church membership is worth to you, Let's change the question. Are you willing to give up your wife to be a member of the church? Are you willing to give up your children to be a member of the church? Now think about the implications, knowing that every night of the rest of your life you will be coming home to an empty apartment. Think about not having your kids around for Christmas, and other holidays or a single day of your life. Think about the real possibility of spending those holidays alone, in your room. Think about not ever even dating anyone. Think about NEVER even hoping that at some point you may find an eternal companion on earth and live the life that every fiber in your soul tells you that you want to live. Now to quote Mystery Meat Quote In every way possible and imaginable the potential is directly connected to marriage. Marriage is central to EVERYTHING we teach and do in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. Without marriage there is no fulfilling our divine potential and there is no fullness of joy. There may be enlightenment, a measure of happiness and some amounts of progression, but there will be an end to how far someone can progress. Except the very core of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is taken from you. Does church membership still appeal to you when you can not participate in the very core of what that church centers on? Are you willing to go sunday after sunday and hear messages of being with a family you can not have for eternity? If the core of the church is not available to you, then what is left? A hollow shell. But wait there is more. After you die. After you have experienced this wonderful life of loneliness with no wife or kids you are instead promised to NEVER have that wife and family that you now so dearly love. Yes, that is right. You are guaranteed that you will never be with your family that you gave up to be a member of the church. Instead, there is some hint that you MAY be able to marry someone of the same sex as you. Yeah that sounds thrilling doesn't it. But wait, there is also some hint that you MAY actually desire someone of the same sex as you. I know that the whole time you were on earth, that never was something that worked. But hey, it is POSSIBLE that you will be magically changed into someone you were not during your entire life on earth. Does membership in the church still appeal to you? Now lets have a real discussion. Who is signing up and WHY do you want to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 6
Scott Lloyd Posted March 7, 2016 Posted March 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, california boy said: Except the very core of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is taken from you. No. Everyone has opportunity to repent and conform their lives to the laws and commandments of God. And for those who do, the promise is in place that no blessing of God will be withheld from them. 4
JLHPROF Posted March 7, 2016 Posted March 7, 2016 21 minutes ago, california boy said: Are you willing to give up your wife to be a member of the church? Are you willing to give up your children to be a member of the church? Now think about the implications, knowing that every night of the rest of your life you will be coming home to an empty apartment. Think about not having your kids around for Christmas, and other holidays or a single day of your life. Think about the real possibility of spending those holidays alone, in your room. Think about not ever even dating anyone. Think about NEVER even hoping that at some point you may find an eternal companion on earth and live the life that every fiber in your soul tells you that you want to live Matthew 10 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. My wife and I have discussed this and we agree. If one of us chooses to apostatize from the gospel and break our covenants, the other is under no obligation to either go with them or even to remain married. The gospel is more important than anything. (Gospel, not the Church). We cannot shape the reality of God and his gospel to suit our desires, and nothing we do or say can change the reality we will have to face in the end. The Celestial Kingdom is how it is and the requirements to enter cannot be changed. We have our agency to choose to follow or not, and that is the end of our say in the matter. 2
CV75 Posted March 7, 2016 Posted March 7, 2016 49 minutes ago, california boy said: If you want to have a real discussion about how much church membership is worth to you, Let's change the question. Are you willing to give up your wife to be a member of the church? Are you willing to give up your children to be a member of the church? Now think about the implications, knowing that every night of the rest of your life you will be coming home to an empty apartment. Think about not having your kids around for Christmas, and other holidays or a single day of your life. Think about the real possibility of spending those holidays alone, in your room. Think about not ever even dating anyone. Think about NEVER even hoping that at some point you may find an eternal companion on earth and live the life that every fiber in your soul tells you that you want to live. 1 John 4: 15 – 19, “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us.” You see, accepting Christ and joining the Church is not about my fear of coming home to an empty apartment, or having my kids around for Christmas, etc., and not ever even dating anyone. These things pale in relation to the blessings. As far as NEVER even hoping that at some point I may find an eternal companion on earth and live the life that every fiber in my soul tells me that I want to live, those are a function of my misunderstanding (at best) and pride, selfishness and shortsightedness (at worst). The Gospel brings perspective, hope, and a sense of comfort in finding the life that Christ wants and sacrificed for me to live. 1
california boy Posted March 7, 2016 Author Posted March 7, 2016 49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: No. Everyone has opportunity to repent and conform their lives to the laws and commandments of God. And for those who do, the promise is in place that no blessing of God will be withheld from them. NO On this earth life, no matter how much you repent and conform, you would not be allowed to have a family here on earth. That is what you are asked to give up. Are you willing to do THAT for membership in the church? 2
california boy Posted March 7, 2016 Author Posted March 7, 2016 36 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Matthew 10 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. My wife and I have discussed this and we agree. If one of us chooses to apostatize from the gospel and break our covenants, the other is under no obligation to either go with them or even to remain married. The gospel is more important than anything. (Gospel, not the Church). We cannot shape the reality of God and his gospel to suit our desires, and nothing we do or say can change the reality we will have to face in the end. The Celestial Kingdom is how it is and the requirements to enter cannot be changed. We have our agency to choose to follow or not, and that is the end of our say in the matter. So are you willing to state that YOU would give up your wife and children and the promise to be with them for eternity in order to be a member of the church? Because that is what is being asked here.
JLHPROF Posted March 7, 2016 Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, california boy said: So are you willing to state that YOU would give up your wife and children and the promise to be with them for eternity in order to be a member of the church? Because that is what is being asked here. I would not choose to enter into a relationship that I knew was not eternal in the first place. Edited March 7, 2016 by JLHPROF 4
Scott Lloyd Posted March 7, 2016 Posted March 7, 2016 1 minute ago, california boy said: NO On this earth life, no matter how much you repent and conform, you would not be allowed to have a family here on earth. That is what you are asked to give up. Are you willing to do THAT for membership in the church? One of the fruits of conversion -- true conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ -- is that one's vistas are expanded. One gains a glimpse into eternity, enough that what Elder Lance Wickman called "this nanosecond" of earthly existence ceases to loom so large. 3
california boy Posted March 7, 2016 Author Posted March 7, 2016 13 minutes ago, CV75 said: 1 John 4: 15 – 19, “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us.” You see, accepting Christ and joining the Church is not about my fear of coming home to an empty apartment, or having my kids around for Christmas, etc., and not ever even dating anyone. These things pale in relation to the blessings. As far as NEVER even hoping that at some point I may find an eternal companion on earth and live the life that every fiber in my soul tells me that I want to live, those are a function of my misunderstanding (at best) and pride, selfishness and shortsightedness (at worst). The Gospel brings perspective, hope, and a sense of comfort in finding the life that Christ wants and sacrificed for me to live. So I ask you as well. Are you willing to give up your wife and children forever to come home to an empty apartment for the rest of your life. Never having the joy and enrichment that your family gives you? AND ever having a hope of being with your family even after you die? All on the hint that you may change who you are attracted to and will be paired up with someone of the same sex? Just asking the question. It is far more than just coming home to an empty apartment. Will you give up ALL of that for membership into the church?
california boy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, T-Shirt said: What family have you been asked to give up? Those members that are gay are asked to give up the chance of having any family here on earth. Give up the chance of having children on earth. Those gay members that have married and have children are asked to break up those families or loose their membership in the church. That family! Furthermore, those gay families are promised that they will NEVER be with that family for all eternity. Edited March 8, 2016 by california boy
strappinglad Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 I'm reasonably sure that the number of people who have lived on the earth and not been able to build a family is at least one order of magnitude greater than the number of homosexuals who have not had that experience. I don't think God will automatically and permanently write off all those who, because of disease, war, disability or other circumstance , did not build their own family. 2
Popular Post T-Shirt Posted March 8, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 8, 2016 Same sex couples cannot have children together, unless by adoption. If you have children, they are from a former marriage. You chose to break up that family. The Church has not asked you to give up your children. 6
consiglieri Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 27 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: One of the fruits of conversion -- true conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ -- is that one's vistas are expanded. One gains a glimpse into eternity, enough that what Elder Lance Wickman called "this nanosecond" of earthly existence ceases to loom so large. While I agree with you in principle, Scott, my view is that the LDS Church has been incrementally decreasing vistas. Joseph Smith broke open the box with the restoration. Since then, the LDS Church has been taken the bits and pieces of wood from the box Joseph broke and used it to construct an entirely new box.
Popular Post JLHPROF Posted March 8, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 8, 2016 9 minutes ago, california boy said: Those members that are gay are asked to give up the chance of having any family here on earth. No, they're not. They have as much right to a family that God has designed as anyone. They just don't get to decide what constitutes a family. God already did that. Give up the chance of having children on earth. Again by choice. Unless there are fertility issues they have the same chance to have children as anyone else. Those gay members that have married and have children are asked to break up those families or loose their membership in the church. That family! Because in the Church of God there is no such thing as a gay marriage or gay family. God never created such a thing. Furthermore, those gay families are promised that they will NEVER be with that family for all eternity True. But they are not forbidden from having the eternal family GOD would like to bless them with. It's an issue of God's will versus their will. God always wins. 5
Sky Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 3 minutes ago, T-Shirt said: Same sex couples cannot have children together, unless by adoption. If you have children, they are from a former marriage. You chose to break up that family. The Church has not asked you to give up your children. So a couple in a mixed-orientation marriage does not deserve any of our sympathy if it turns out they could not make it work? Because that's sort of what I'm hearing.
Mystery Meat Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 1 hour ago, california boy said: With all due respect to Mystery Meat, I think he asked the wrong question. Of course we know the answer the the question about gay members that most TBM will give. "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it" or some variation of that. If you want to have a real discussion about how much church membership is worth to you, Let's change the question. Are you willing to give up your wife to be a member of the church? Are you willing to give up your children to be a member of the church? Now think about the implications, knowing that every night of the rest of your life you will be coming home to an empty apartment. Think about not having your kids around for Christmas, and other holidays or a single day of your life. Think about the real possibility of spending those holidays alone, in your room. Think about not ever even dating anyone. Think about NEVER even hoping that at some point you may find an eternal companion on earth and live the life that every fiber in your soul tells you that you want to live. Now to quote Mystery Meat Except the very core of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is taken from you. Does church membership still appeal to you when you can not participate in the very core of what that church centers on? Are you willing to go sunday after sunday and hear messages of being with a family you can not have for eternity? If the core of the church is not available to you, then what is left? A hollow shell. But wait there is more. After you die. After you have experienced this wonderful life of loneliness with no wife or kids you are instead promised to NEVER have that wife and family that you now so dearly love. Yes, that is right. You are guaranteed that you will never be with your family that you gave up to be a member of the church. Instead, there is some hint that you MAY be able to marry someone of the same sex as you. Yeah that sounds thrilling doesn't it. But wait, there is also some hint that you MAY actually desire someone of the same sex as you. I know that the whole time you were on earth, that never was something that worked. But hey, it is POSSIBLE that you will be magically changed into someone you were not during your entire life on earth. Does membership in the church still appeal to you? Now lets have a real discussion. Who is signing up and WHY do you want to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I appreciate what you are getting at CB. But the portion you quoted by me is not applicable to any gay marriage. That marriage takes its participants further away from God, not closer. It stunts the type of divine growth I was referring to. It does not and cannot expand upon it. Now if the doctrine was reversed and only gay marriages could produce the type of happiness and progression that in reality is reserved for a man and a woman and if I had the same burning testimony I do of the restoration and the Book of Mormon, then I would chose to trust God. I would trust that if I would be happier as a gay man in the eternities according to the word of God even if the thought is disgusting to me now, I would trust God that it would be so and welcome the change. I don't think any of this would be easy, nor do I think it would be ideal, but you asked and I answered. I am a member of the Church because its doctrines are true, including its doctrine on marriage and chastity. I am not a member because it feels good or because its teaching are an opiate for my naivete. I am a member of the Church because of undeniable experiences that have assured me and left with knowledge (not just faith or hope) that Jesus is the Christ, that the fullness of His gospel is found exclusively here, that the Church can assist me reach my divine potential and that no other organization on Earth can even come close. I am a member of the Church because Jesus Christ Himself has authorized its leaders to act and speak in His name. Lastly, I am a member of the Church because I want to be happy for eternity and live with God there. I would abandon any relationship that prevented me from being with Him. Period. It saddens me that there are folks who have made bad choices. It saddens me that there are folks who would rather identify themselves by a temporary, fallen and mortal condition than live with God. It saddens me that these people think that "love" conquers all. It saddens me that you seem to think those of us are members chose the Church because its teachings merely sound good to our ears. It saddens me that you seem to want the Church to change its teachings so that they appeal more to the superficial feelings of a generation who can't handle hearing the words: "You are wrong." 2
california boy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Posted March 8, 2016 36 minutes ago, T-Shirt said: Same sex couples cannot have children together, unless by adoption. If you have children, they are from a former marriage. You chose to break up that family. The Church has not asked you to give up your children. You are missing the point of this thread. The question is, how many straight members of the church would be willing to give up their wife and children for membership in the church. So the question is to you. Would you be willing to give up your wife and children in order to be a member of the church?
T-Shirt Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 28 minutes ago, Sky said: So a couple in a mixed-orientation marriage does not deserve any of our sympathy if it turns out they could not make it work? Because that's sort of what I'm hearing. Of course not. It must be a very difficult thing and it is deserving of great compassion. Nevertheless, the fact remains, same sex couples who have children, (other than by adoption) at one point chose to break up their family. They love their children, I am sure. But the love of their children was not enough to keep them from leaving for something else. The Church did not break them up and in no way desires to have their children taken from them. 1
california boy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Posted March 8, 2016 33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: 49 minutes ago, california boy said: Those members that are gay are asked to give up the chance of having any family here on earth. No, they're not. They have as much right to a family that God has designed as anyone. They just don't get to decide what constitutes a family. God already did that. Give up the chance of having children on earth. Again by choice. Unless there are fertility issues they have the same chance to have children as anyone else. Those gay members that have married and have children are asked to break up those families or loose their membership in the church. That family! Because in the Church of God there is no such thing as a gay marriage or gay family. God never created such a thing. Furthermore, those gay families are promised that they will NEVER be with that family for all eternity True. But they are not forbidden from having the eternal family GOD would like to bless them with. It's an issue of God's will versus their will. God always wins. While the church at one time did encourage gay members to marry someone of the opposite sex, they no long do. The church has clearly stated, marriage is not therapy.
T-Shirt Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 9 minutes ago, california boy said: You are missing the point of this thread. The question is, how many straight members of the church would be willing to give up their wife and children for membership in the church. So the question is to you. Would you be willing to give up your wife and children in order to be a member of the church? How is that comparison equal?
USU78 Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 56 minutes ago, california boy said: Those members that are gay are asked to give up the chance of having any family here on earth. Give up the chance of having children on earth. Those gay members that have married and have children are asked to break up those families or loose their membership in the church. That family! Furthermore, those gay families are promised that they will NEVER be with that family for all eternity. I've long thought the employment of the appellation "gay" to describe the sad and lonely and unfulfilling life of the homosexual is a cruel and cynical and not funny at all joke
california boy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Posted March 8, 2016 11 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I appreciate what you are getting at CB. But the portion you quoted by me is not applicable to any gay marriage. That marriage takes its participants further away from God, not closer. It stunts the type of divine growth I was referring to. It does not and cannot expand upon it. Now if the doctrine was reversed and only gay marriages could produce the type of happiness and progression that in reality is reserved for a man and a woman and if I had the same burning testimony I do of the restoration and the Book of Mormon, then I would chose to trust God. I would trust that if I would be happier as a gay man in the eternities according to the word of God even if the thought is disgusting to me now, I would trust God that it would be so and welcome the change. I don't think any of this would be easy, nor do I think it would be ideal, but you asked and I answered. I am a member of the Church because its doctrines are true, including its doctrine on marriage and chastity. I am not a member because it feels good or because its teaching are an opiate for my naivete. I am a member of the Church because of undeniable experiences that have assured me and left with knowledge (not just faith or hope) that Jesus is the Christ, that the fullness of His gospel is found exclusively here, that the Church can assist me reach my divine potential and that no other organization on Earth can even come close. I am a member of the Church because Jesus Christ Himself has authorized its leaders to act and speak in His name. Lastly, I am a member of the Church because I want to be happy for eternity and live with God there. I would abandon any relationship that prevented me from being with Him. Period. It saddens me that there are folks who have made bad choices. It saddens me that there are folks who would rather identify themselves by a temporary, fallen and mortal condition than live with God. It saddens me that these people think that "love" conquers all. It saddens me that you seem to think those of us are members chose the Church because its teachings merely sound good to our ears. It saddens me that you seem to want the Church to change its teachings so that they appeal more to the superficial feelings of a generation who can't handle hearing the words: "You are wrong." Well first of all. You are the only straight person so far that is willing to give up his wife and children with no hope of being with them in the eternities for membership into the church. I wonder how many others will make that same statement. I don't know if you travel alone on business, but if you do, can you remember the joy and happiness when you are finally reunited with your wife and children? Now you are stating that you would forgo that reuniting for eternity in order to be a member of the church. That is quite the testimony. You don't have to be sad about me. I very much want to participate in the discussion of this issue. I am interested in how members handle this policy. But I personally don't have any desire for the church to change it's teachings on gay marriage. I only want to point out the reality of this church policy. If people are ok with that, then that is perfectly fine with me.
Storm Rider Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 1 hour ago, california boy said: NO On this earth life, no matter how much you repent and conform, you would not be allowed to have a family here on earth. That is what you are asked to give up. Are you willing to do THAT for membership in the church? NO, you are using an unfair and unrealistic standard to create your argument. If one is converted is it possible to conform one's life to Christ's will? If so, why are you putting up absolutes? I am willing to take upon me the name of Christ; I am willing to forfeit my will and take on his will for me. That is what is asked of every disciple of Christ. Do you really think you, or any other gay person, is beyond that request to "Come follow me"?
CV75 Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, california boy said: So I ask you as well. Are you willing to give up your wife and children forever to come home to an empty apartment for the rest of your life. Never having the joy and enrichment that your family gives you? AND ever having a hope of being with your family even after you die? All on the hint that you may change who you are attracted to and will be paired up with someone of the same sex? Just asking the question. It is far more than just coming home to an empty apartment. Will you give up ALL of that for membership into the church? Why can't you see that I already answered each of those questions? Of course I would. It does not diminish them in the eyes of God, and is the best hope for their salvation as well as mine. I have been striving to give up everything the Lord asks of me for their sake from the start. That is what husbands and fathers do: make the ultimate sacrifice no matter what it may entail at the moment. Baptism is the necessary gate for us all. Edited March 8, 2016 by CV75
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