Why did Emma Smith fight polygamy so strongly?

[CA Steve]

43 minutes ago, rpn said:

1.  What John Bennett was doing was not sanctioned by anyone, and deserved every condemnation it received. 

 

I believe what John C. Bennett was doing in Nauvoo was what he thought others were doing, his mistake was doing it on his own authority.

For a good biography (or at least the only one out there) see Andrew F. Smith, The Saintly Scoundrel: The Life and Times of Dr. John Cook Bennett, University of Illinois Press (April 1, 1997).

He was a really interesting guy. Here is an editorial review on the book.

Quote

John Cook Bennett, 1840s Renaissance man, was a scientist, a religious leader, and a flimflam man extraordinaire. Tomato promoter (when the crimson orbs were thought dangerous), diploma seller, self-taught military genius, confidant and then intractable detractor of Mormon founder Joseph Smith--his biography bursts with the ingenuity, verbiage, and gall of the man. "A self-taught person who probably never graduated from college or attended a medical school," his biographer says, "his endeavors to establish educational institutions [are] utterly amazing"; although he remains notorious for selling medical degrees, "Bennett granted diplomas in numerous academic areas." Seeking out the Mormons in Nauvoo, Illinois, Bennett became the mayor and military commandant; a quartermaster general in the state militia, he then procured equipment for a virtual Mormon army. Eventually he wrote an expose of Joseph Smith, charging him with planning an independent Mormon empire and practicing polygamy (Bennett had been, of course, an enthusiastic polygamist himself). After "two years of anti-Mormon campaigning," he tried to gain control of the church when Smith was assassinated. Astonishing, but typical of an American entrepreneurial zealot whose dynamic biography is truly stranger than fiction

 

 

 

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I believe what John C. Bennett was doing in Nauvoo was what he thought others were doing, his mistake was doing it on his own authority.

I think you are giving him FAR too much credit.
I think your statement could rightly be applied to some men who ran before being sent.
However, in the case of John C. Bennett there can be no doubt he not only used polygamy as an excuse but that he completely corrupted the practice by choice.  He had no noble intent or righteous desire in his actions.  The lack of authorization was hardly his only sin.

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I think you are giving him FAR too much credit.
I think your statement could rightly be applied to some men who ran before being sent.
However, in the case of John C. Bennett there can be no doubt he not only used polygamy as an excuse but that he completely corrupted the practice by choice.  He had no noble intent or righteous desire in his actions.  The lack of authorization was hardly his only sin.

I believe that he was authorized to enter into polygamy (but I read that all of his plural marriages and references were expunged by Joseph from church records after he left Nauvoo...is that correct?).

I do believe that he went rogue and started using this as an excuse to go after other women and do things that were definitely not authorized by Joseph.

But, he lived with Joseph for 8 months and they were inseparable (from what I've read).   I need to revisit this as I'm just going from memory here.  

I know that he performed at least 2 marriages (Zina Huntington's to Henry Jacobs and also the marriage of Sarah Pratt's sister in her and Orson's home.)

Joseph called him to be assistant to the president of the church (counselor)  and he was made Master in Chancery for Hancock County, he was on the University of Nauvoo's board and Mayor of Nauvoo.  Bennett organized the first masonic lodge in Nauvoo,   So he was heavily involved during this time period in Nauvoo and Joseph trusted him until he went off the rails.

So again, I believe he was authorized to at least enter into some plural marriages.   But without the records, we can't know.

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, JulieM said:

I don't know that it was a commandment from God. I believe Joseph was a Prophet, but I also believe they are not infallible.   I think polygamy was a mistake and came from man. 

I believe that Emma knew of Joseph's meanderings and felt that the sudden polygamy commandment came from no one but her husband.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Jeanne

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I believe what John C. Bennett was doing in Nauvoo was what he thought others were doing, his mistake was doing it on his own authority.

 

 

John C. Bennett was not doing what he though everyone else was doing in Nauvoo. Meg Stout has been doing a lot od research on Nayvoo polygamy. If you read and listen to her presentation on the Catherine Laur Fuller Warren's testimony against him, I think that you will agree. It is interesting to note that Bennett once trie to publicly set the record straight, but was run off the stage.

Glenn 

[JLHPROF]

36 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I believe that he was authorized to enter into polygamy (but I read that all of his plural marriages and references were expunged by Joseph from church records after he left Nauvoo...is that correct?).

I do believe that he went rogue and started using this as an excuse to go after other women and do things that were definitely not authorized by Joseph.

But, he lived with Joseph for 8 months and they were inseparable (from what I've read).   I need to revisit this as I'm just going from memory here.  

I know that he performed at least 2 marriages (Zina Huntington's to Henry Jacobs and also the marriage of Sarah Pratt's sister in her and Orson's home.)

Joseph called him to be assistant to the president of the church (counselor)  and he was made Master in Chancery for Hancock County, he was on the University of Nauvoo's board and Mayor of Nauvoo.  Bennett organized the first masonic lodge in Nauvoo,   So he was heavily involved during this time period in Nauvoo and Joseph trusted him until he went off the rails.

So again, I believe he was authorized to at least enter into some plural marriages.   But without the records, we can't know.

I don't agree and I'll tell you why.
NOBODY is on record as entering authorized plural marriage (other than Joseph Smith) prior to early 1842, and only 3 men are on record as entering authorized polygamy in that year other than the prophet.
John C. Bennett was already under investigation for immorality by February of 1842 and was excommunicated by May of 1842.

Given that Bennett was already falling from favor and under investigation by the time people other than Joseph started entering polygamy I doubt Joseph EVER authorized any of his liaisons.  If I am wrong and they were authorized then John C. Bennett was the first man authorized to enter plural marriage after Joseph Smith and the first man commanded by the prophet to do so.  Joseph didn't command anyone to enter plural marriage until 1842, and 2 of those three went on to receive their endowment that year.

John C. Bennett may have known of Joseph's plural marriages and used them as an excuse for himself (even making up his own term for it), but he was never authorized to enter one.  By the time Joseph authorized anyone Bennett had already been removed.

ETA - There is no historical evidence that Joseph expunged record of Bennett's authorized marriages.  That claim appears only on anti-mormon websites and in George D Smith's "Nauvoo Polygamy" book pg 119 (a very biased work) where no source for such a claim by the author is provided.
It is not history and doesn't fit with Bennett's timeline.

Edited March 6, 2016 by JLHPROF

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

John C. Bennett was not doing what he though everyone else was doing in Nauvoo. Meg Stout has been doing a lot od research on Nayvoo polygamy. If you read and listen to her presentation on the Catherine Laur Fuller Warren's testimony against him, I think that you will agree. It is interesting to note that Bennett once trie to publicly set the record straight, but was run off the stage.

Glenn 

Meg Stout?  She's the one who stated that "carnal intercourse" meant Joseph passing a platter of turkey in bed, correct?  That was ridiculous.

[ALarson]

22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't agree and I'll tell you why.
NOBODY is on record as entering authorized plural marriage (other than Joseph Smith) prior to early 1842, and only 3 men are on record as entering authorized polygamy in that year other than the prophet.
John C. Bennett was already under investigation for immorality by February of 1842 and was excommunicated by May of 1842.

Given that Bennett was already falling from favor and under investigation by the time people other than Joseph started entering polygamy I doubt Joseph EVER authorized any of his liaisons.  If I am wrong and they were authorized then John C. Bennett was the first man authorized to enter plural marriage after Joseph Smith and the first man commanded by the prophet to do so.  Joseph didn't command anyone to enter plural marriage until 1842, and 2 of those three went on to receive their endowment that year.

John C. Bennett may have known of Joseph's plural marriages and used them as an excuse for himself (even making up his own term for it), but he was never authorized to enter one.  By the time Joseph authorized anyone Bennett had already been removed.

Then we can disagree.  I believe he & Joseph were extremely close and that he was a trusted insider (as the evidence reflects and the trusted positions and callings that Joseph extended to him).   It makes perfect sense to me that he was authorized to enter into at least one plural marriage before they fell out and before Joseph stopped trusting him.   He very likely could have been the first confidant that Joseph trusted with information on plural marriage seeing what Bennett's position was in the community, the church leadership and in Joseph's personal life.

I'd have to look up and see if Bennett was living with Joseph at the time he entered into some of his plural marriages (Louisa Beaman was in 1841 and 2 days later, Bennett was sustained to be a counselor in the first presidency, so that's evidence Joseph still trusted him at that time).

Bottom line is we don't know and we can only accumulate circumstantial evidence and guess what may have taken place without the records.

I do believe that Bennett was a scoundrel and that Joseph should not have ever trusted him or confided in him.  I also do not believe he ever had a testimony or believed.

.

Edited March 6, 2016 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Then we can disagree.  I believe he & Joseph were extremely close and that he was a trusted insider (as the evidence reflects and the trusted positions and callings that Joseph extended to him).   It makes perfect sense to me that he was authorized to enter into at least one plural marriage before they fell out and before Joseph stopped trusting him.   He very likely could have been the first confidant that Joseph trusted with information on plural marriage seeing what Bennett's position was in the community, the church leadership and in Joseph's personal life.

Bottom line is we don't know and we can only accumulate circumstantial evidence and guess what may have taken place without the records.

I do believe that Bennett was a scoundrel and that Joseph should not have ever trusted him or confided in him.  I also do not believe he ever had a testimony or believed.

.

I am agreeing  with you ..for awhile, it seemed like Bennett was JS's shaddow.  I may get a lot of flak for this but I believe there was talk..and maybe just talk, that Bennett was used to provide ways of abortion.

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

I am agreeing  with you ..for awhile, it seemed like Bennett was JS's shaddow.  I may get a lot of flak for this but I believe there was talk..and maybe just talk, that Bennett was used to provide ways of abortion.

Yes, they lived together for 8 months.  Joseph was still very close to Bennett when he entered into plural marriages in 1841.  

But, the records are reported to have been expunged of anything to do with John Bennett, so we simply do not know if he actually was authorized to practice plural marriage.

 

[ksfisher]

22 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am agreeing  with you ..for awhile, it seemed like Bennett was JS's shaddow.  I may get a lot of flak for this but I believe there was talk..and maybe just talk, that Bennett was used to provide ways of abortion.

CFR in the abortions.  If you are going to bring up something so heinous, I hope you would have a means of backing it up.  Otherwise it comes off as vicious slander.  Please provide a reference or retract.

[USU78]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

CFR in the abortions.  If you are going to bring up something so heinous, I hope you would have a means of backing it up.  Otherwise it comes off as vicious slander.  Please provide a reference or retract.

We all grew up with tales of Bennett the abortionist. Nobody knows if that's true, though.

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, USU78 said:

We all grew up with tales of Bennett the abortionist. Nobody knows if that's true, though.

Exactly.  

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, USU78 said:

We all grew up with tales of Bennett the abortionist. Nobody knows if that's true, though.

Even Hyrum Smith made a statement regarding alleged abortions performed in Nauvoo by Bennett.

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

CFR in the abortions.  If you are going to bring up something so heinous, I hope you would have a means of backing it up.  Otherwise it comes off as vicious slander.  Please provide a reference or retract.

I have collected all the statements I could find that people made about alleged abortions in Nauvoo.  I'll look for them and try to post them here (like I posted above, one of them is by Hyrum Smith).

.

Edited March 6, 2016 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

50 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

CFR in the abortions.  If you are going to bring up something so heinous, I hope you would have a means of backing it up.  Otherwise it comes off as vicious slander.  Please provide a reference or retract.

I have just read it somewhere before and that is why I mentioned it.  Other have heard it too..I would like you to retract  that I would start vicious slander. 

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

CFR in the abortions.  If you are going to bring up something so heinous, I hope you would have a means of backing it up.  Otherwise it comes off as vicious slander.  Please provide a reference or retract.

Hyrum Smith is the one who accused Bennett of being an abortionist, and he did so without "means of backing it up", so are you accusing Hyrum of "vicious slander"?

Affidavit of Hyrum Smith. On the seventeenth day of May, 1842, having been made acquainted with some of the conduct of John C. Bennett, which was given in testimony, under oath before Alderman G. W. Harris, by several females who testified that John C. Bennett endeavored to seduce them, and accomplished his designs by saying it was right; that it was one of the mysteries of God, which was to be revealed when the people was strong enough in faith to bear such mysteries--that it was perfectly right to have illicit intercourse with females, providing no one knew it but themselves, vehemently trying them from day to day, to yield to his passions, bringing witnesses of his own clan to testify that there were such revelations and such commandments, and that they were of God; also stating that he would be responsible for their sins, if there were any, and that he would give them medicine to produce abortions, provided they should become pregnant.

History of the Church vol. 5

 

http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/Vol_V

Edited March 6, 2016 by cinepro

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Hyrum Smith is the one who accused Bennett of being an abortionist, and he did so without "means of backing it up", so are you accusing Hyrum of "vicious slander"?

 

 

Your quote seems to indicate that Hyrum Smith was saying that the witnesses against Bennett were the ones testifying that Bennett would provide them with medicine that would produce abortions. Not nearly the same thing.

Glenn

[USU78]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Hyrum Smith is the one who accused Bennett of being an abortionist, and he did so without "means of backing it up", so are you accusing Hyrum of "vicious slander"?

I happen to believe the tales. As did Mormons of the time. The strength of the evidence is another matter entirety 

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So you believe that all historical instances of polygyny and polyandry were based on the human cultural practices of the time and place?  So that Abraham and his grandson Jacob simply practiced polygyny without divine warrant, and that God overlooked such tawdry practices in those days as examples of human fallibility?  Indeed, any Scriptures saying the contrary are the inventions of men, plain and simple?

Quote

JulieM said:

I don't believe that God ever commanded polygamy to be lived.  If consenting adults choose to live it, that's their choice, but no, I don't believe it came from God.

 So the specific commandment of God dealing with levirate marriage (polygyny required when a brother dies childless and an already married living brother must also marry the widow to provide a child for the dead brother) is a false commandment, not given by God, and invented by man?  So that Jacob is putting words in the Lord's mouth at Jacob 2:30, where he allows for occasions when polygyny can be commanded?  So that the claim in II Sam 12:7 that the Lord gave multiple wives to David is a phony claim?  So God never approved of polygyny, no matter what Scripture says?

Compare Ex 21:10, Lev 18:6-18, Deut 21:15-17, 25:5-10, II Sam 12:7-8,11, Ruth 4:7-8, I Chron 28:5, Psalm 45:9 

Edited March 6, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[Glenn101]

3 hours ago, ALarson said:

Meg Stout?  She's the one who stated that "carnal intercourse" meant Joseph passing a platter of turkey in bed, correct?  That was ridiculous.

I have never heard that one before. Meg does not believe that sexual intercourse was present in most of Joseph Smith's polygamous relations, but does entertain that such was possible, at least in a couple of instances. She is open to receiving further evidence. And she definitely seems to know what sexual intercourse is.

Could you provide a link where I can check the supposed turkey quote?

Thanks,

Glenn

[Glenn101]

34 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I happen to believe the tales. As did Mormons of the time. The strength of the evidence is another matter entirety 

The strength of the evidence would seem to rest upon the credibility of the witnesses who testified against him.

 

Glenn

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, ALarson said:

the records are reported to have been expunged of anything to do with John Bennett, so we simply do not know if he actually was authorized to practice plural marriage.

You keep stating this.
CFR that there is any historical source for this claim of expunged marriages.  The only source I can find provides none.

[JulieM]

I remember reading that there is no mention of John C. Bennett's name in any church records.  None at all.  That seems odd and lends credibility to his name being completely removed.  He was a prominent force in Nauvoo for the years he was there.  

There is:

No Baptism record for John Bennett.

No record of him receiving the priesthood. 

Nothing.

I think that's evidence his name was taken off of any church records.

Wouldn't he have had to have been a member of the church and hold the priesthood to be called to serve in the calling of counselor in the 1st presidency?

And, let me add that I wouldn't blame Joseph for erasing any records involving John Bennett.  He betrayed Joseph and the great trust he gave him.  

Edited March 6, 2016 by JulieM

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I believe that Emma knew of Joseph's meanderings and felt that the sudden polygamy commandment came from no one but her husband.

Despite all the efforts of geneticist Ugo Perego, the only descendants of Joseph come from Emma.  Other potential descendants of Joseph have been DNA tested without a match.  Joseph was certainly fertile, having children by Emma during that entire time.  The claims about Emma vary from her strong approval of poygyny to outright warfare against it (using the Relief Society as a weapon).  Even the rumor of her kicking Eliza Snow down the stairs is likely not true.  It is now revealed that Eliza was the victim of a gang rape during the mobbing of Mormons, and consequently could not bear children.