Why did Emma Smith fight polygamy so strongly?

[ALarson]

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Who claimed that polyandry was in the Bible?  No one, except perhaps you, so that you can knock it down.  You also claim that "polyandry was a big part of how he lived" polygyny.  Was it really?  Is that what Brian Hales concluded?

I was using polyandry (as lived by Joseph and others), simply as an example that the polygamy lived in the early days of the church included details that caused it to be lived differently than how it was lived in Biblical times. Many of Joseph's marriages were to other men's legal wives.  That information is even included in the church essays on this topic.

And yes, I have read what Brian Hales has written on this topic as well as what many others have written.

.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ALarson

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I have not lost.  You finally agreed with me that polygamy was not commanded anywhere in the Bible (other than maybe as a part of Levirate marriages), as I initially and continuously stated here. 

You insisted that there had to be a commandment in the Bible, which I showed and you agreed did exist with levirate marriage.  You also agreed that polygyny was a standard biblical practice, accepted by God, and that no commandment was necessary -- thus rendering your continuous non sequitur meaningless.

(Do you want me to issue a CFR?  I honestly can't tell what you mean from how you worded your first sentence above.  Thanks.)

I said "now you can CFR that Joseph claimed that polygyny had been commanded in the Bible."  Is that really so hard to understand?

 

[ALarson]

 

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You insisted that there had to be a commandment in the Bible

Where did I "insist" this?  I don't care if there was a commandment in the Bible for polygamy.

I simply continued to state that polygamy was not commanded in the Bible (other than as a part of Levirate marriages).   And you now agree.

.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ALarson

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I was using polyandry (as lived by Joseph and others), simply as an example that the polygamy lived in the early days of the church included details that caused it to be lived differently than how it was lived in Biblical times. Many of Joseph's marriages were to other men's legal wives.  That information is even included in the church essays on this topic.

And yes, I have read what Brian Hales has written on this topic as well as what many others have written..

So you are claiming that being sealed to other men's wives as well as to other men is simply polyandry, and that is what Brian Hales claims (you say you have read him, so you should be able to answer the question).

[ALarson]

 

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I said "now you can CFR that Joseph claimed that polygyny had been commanded in the Bible."  Is that really so hard to understand?

Now I "can 'call for references' that Joseph claimed that polygyny had been commanded in the Bible"?  No need for me to do that.

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So you are claiming that being sealed to other men's wives as well as to other men is simply polyandry, and that is what Brian Hales claims (you say you have read him, so you should be able to answer the question).

Nope, not what I stated.  But continue to put words in my mouth if you wish.  I consider many of Joseph's marriages (and Brigham's) to be polyandrous in nature.  That's it.  

The essay even states:

Quote

Following his marriage to Louisa Beaman and before he married other single women, Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women who were already married.²⁹ Neither these women nor Joseph explained much about these sealings, though several women said they were for eternity alone.³⁰ Other women left no records, making it unknown whether their sealings were for time and eternity or were for eternity alone.

So, there are a lot of "unknowns" here and we each need to study the history available and come to our own conclusions.  

And, where did I state anything regarding "what Brian Hales claims"?  You brought him up, not I.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

 

Where did I "insist" this?  I don't care if there was a commandment in the Bible for polygamy.

On levirate marriage, you said:  

Quote

”I do agree that in this case, polygamy was a part of the commandment.
“But, you have failed to show where God commanded anyone to live polygamy elsewhere in the Bible (unless you use Joseph's words or the D&C for reference).  We have record that God "allowed" it or didn't "condemn" it at times....but it was not commanded.”

“God did not command polygamy until Joseph stated that he was commanded to live it.”

I simply continued to state that polygamy was not commanded in the Bible (other than as a part of Levirate marriages).   And you now agree.

Your non sequitur was to consistently insist that a biblical commandment was required, when in fact it was not.  Biblical practice was polygynous marriage, and God regulated it.  No commandment was necessary.  It took a long time for you to accept this fact.  You should graciously accept that you were consistently wrong on both counts.

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[snowflake]

57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No, it's not.
He was saying that there will be no new marriages after the resurrection.  And he is saying it pretty clearly.
It matches perfectly with D&C 132:16 -

"Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory."

I don't see how any reading of those Matthew verses can be seen to say there is no marriage in the eternities.  He is clearly saying there will be no new marriages - "neither marry nor are given in marriage".  He never says no marriage.

²⁴ Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

²⁵ Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

²⁶ Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

²⁷ And last of all the woman died also.

²⁸ Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

²⁹ Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

³⁰ For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

D&C 132:16 says the same thing. "neither marry or are given in marriage"

JLHPROF, I disagree, He doesn't say "no new marriages" either.  Please read the scripture in context.  She marries all 7 of the man's brothers, then she dies. The Lord Jesus is asked who will she be married to in heaven, for all 7 had her?  Jesus' response, "neither marry nor are given in marriage", so no marriage in heaven.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Now I "can 'call for references' that Joseph claimed that polygyny had been commanded in the Bible"?  No need for me to do that.

You are the one who made the claim: " That is what is claimed by Joseph (that it was commanded) just as he was commanded to live it."

So where did Joseph claim that it was commanded in the Bible?  Board rules require that you ether present the reference or admit that you cannot support that claim>  A CFR may not be ignored, as you are now doing.

[ALarson]

I simply stated that polygamy was not commanded in the Bible (other than a part of some Levirate marriages which I agreed about) and then I pointed out to you that you had failed to show where it was otherwise commanded (other than Joseph's claims).   Don't misrepresent what I stated.

.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are the one who made the claim: " That is what is claimed by Joseph (that it was commanded) just as he was commanded to live it."

So where did Joseph claim that it was commanded in the Bible?  Board rules require that you ether present the reference or admit that you cannot support that claim>  A CFR may not be ignored, as you are now doing.

Just issue a CFR.  The way you stated it was confusing (as if I was to issue a CFR?).  Sure, I'm fine answering that Joseph stated polygamy was commanded for some to live in the Bible.

[ALarson]

D&C 132

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises. 

(And, please don't try to claim that this was not Joseph Smith stating this, as of course it was.)

.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ALarson

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

D&C 132

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises. 

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it. 

 

O.K., I understand.  I thought you were claiming that Joseph himself had made the claim in his own voice.  You are saying that a divine revelation, in the voice of God is actually Joseph speaking.  Do you say the same of the laws of Moses, even though they may be presented in the voice of God?

[Robert F. Smith]

24 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I simply stated that polygamy was not commanded in the Bible (other than a part of some Levirate marriages which I agreed about) and then I pointed out to you that you had failed to show where it was otherwise commanded (other than Joseph's claims).   Don't misrepresent what I stated..

I quoted you, showing that you contradicted yourself, and that you agreed that God had in fact commanded polygyny -- it was very hard for you to acknowledge that.  I am not misrepresenting what you said, even if it irks you that you failed to understand Holy Writ at first..

[ALarson]

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I quoted you, showing that you contradicted yourself, and that you agreed that God had in fact commanded polygyny -- it was very hard for you to acknowledge that.  I am not misrepresenting what you said, even if it irks you that you failed to understand Holy Writ at first..

I have not contradicted myself at all here.

I have simply stated the same thing several times.  That God did not command anyone to live polygamy in the Bible except for it being a part of some Levirate marriages.  If you can show where I posted something that contradicts this, please supply a quote.

What has happened here is that I have repeatedly stated the same thing.  You initially disagreed, and then you finally agreed that I was indeed correct.  If that is hard for you to acknowledge, just move on but do not accuse me of saying or doing something that I have definitely not done here.

.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I quoted you, showing that you contradicted yourself, 

Here is the quote you are referring to (where do I contradict myself?):

On 3/7/2016 at 11:17 AM, ALarson said:

When it came to the commandment from God for a brother to marry and take care of his dead brother's wife (Levirate marriages), I feel the emphasis is mainly on the importance of God ensuring that the widow and her children were taken care of.  Of course, it most likely included the brother having more than one wife in the process of taking care of his brother's widow.  I do agree that in this case, polygamy was a part of the commandment.

But, you have failed to show where God commanded anyone to live polygamy elsewhere in the Bible (unless you use Joseph's words or the D&C for reference).  We have record that God "allowed" it or didn't "condemn" it at times....but it was not commanded.

 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

 Jesus' response, "neither marry nor are given in marriage", so no marriage in heaven.

Nope.  No weddings in heaven after the resurrection.  Neither marry (get married) nor are given in marriage (get married).
No prohibition on marriage continuing.
Basic reading comprehension.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, ALarson said:

Here is the quote you are referring to (where do I contradict myself?):

 

Quote

On 3/7/2016 at 0:17 PM, ALarson said:

When it came to the commandment from God for a brother to marry and take care of his dead brother's wife (Levirate marriages), I feel the emphasis is mainly on the importance of God ensuring that the widow and her children were taken care of.  Of course, it most likely included the brother having more than one wife in the process of taking care of his brother's widow.  I do agree that in this case, polygamy was a part of the commandment.

But, you have failed to show where God commanded anyone to live polygamy elsewhere in the Bible (unless you use Joseph's words or the D&C for reference).  We have record that God "allowed" it or didn't "condemn" it at times....but it was not commanded.

 

In for a penny, in for a pound, Larson.  You also told JLHPROF " for many, it means that God did not command polygamy until Joseph stated that he was commanded to live it." 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, ALarson said:

D&C 132

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises. 

(And, please don't try to claim that this was not Joseph Smith stating this, as of course it was.).

You still haven't answered my question as to whether the same applies to Moses, because you appear to be saying that words attributed to God by both Moses and Joseph really came from them personally, and not really from God.  I have no problem with that, as long as you are consistent.

[ALarson]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In for a penny, in for a pound,  

Yes you are, it appears.  You keep repeating the same false accusation and then misrepresenting my quotes in an attempt to try and prove something that I have not done here (contradicted myself).

Here is your last futile attempt:

 

Quote

 

On 3/7/2016 at 0:17 PM, ALarson said:

When it came to the commandment from God for a brother to marry and take care of his dead brother's wife (Levirate marriages), I feel the emphasis is mainly on the importance of God ensuring that the widow and her children were taken care of.  Of course, it most likely included the brother having more than one wife in the process of taking care of his brother's widow.  I do agree that in this case, polygamy was a part of the commandment.

But, you have failed to show where God commanded anyone to live polygamy elsewhere in the Bible (unless you use Joseph's words or the D&C for reference).  We have record that God "allowed" it or didn't "condemn" it at times....but it was not commanded.

 

 Oops.....when you were putting words in bold, you forgot to bold the word "elsewhere" in the second paragraph.  I was completely consistent with my statements above with all other statements I have made regarding this on the thread.  No contradictions whatsoever.  Above, I again stated (1st paragraph) my belief regarding Levirate marriages, then (2nd paragraph), I stated that "elsewhere in the Bible", it was not commanded.

You might want to give up trying to prove something that is false.  I have not contradicted myself here as I have consistently stated the same thing several times.  

[ALarson]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You still haven't answered my question as to whether the same applies to Moses, because you appear to be saying that words attributed to God by both Moses and Joseph really came from them personally, and not really from God.  I have no problem with that, as long as you are consistent.

You continue to put words in my mouth.  Where have I mentioned Moses here?  Please supply the quote.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

You continue to put words in my mouth.  Where have I mentioned Moses here?  Please supply the quote.

I asked you a question.  Are you really afraid to answer?

[Robert F. Smith]

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes you are, it appears.  You keep repeating the same false accusation and then misrepresenting my quotes in an attempt to try and prove something that I have not done here (contradicted myself).

Here is your last futile attempt:

 

 Oops.....when you were putting words in bold, you forgot to bold the word "elsewhere" in the second paragraph.  I was completely consistent with my statements above with all other statements I have made regarding this on the thread.  No contradictions whatsoever.  Above, I again stated (1st paragraph) my belief regarding Levirate marriages, then (2nd paragraph), I stated that "elsewhere in the Bible", it was not commanded.

You might want to give up trying to prove something that is false.  I have not contradicted myself here as I have consistently stated the same thing several times.  

You are in denial, Bro.

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are in denial, Bro.

You can claim that if it makes you feel better.  You have completely failed to show anywhere here where I have contradicted my original statement.  Your attempts to misquote me or misrepresent what I stated have failed.  You won't find any quotes here where I have contradicted myself.  I'm done with this back and forth and will not respond.  But keep trying it you want....carry on...  

Edited March 9, 2016 by ALarson