TheSkepticChristian Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 " Faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from heaven that comes as we choose to believe and as we seek it and hold on to it " https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/faith-is-not-by-chance-but-by-choice?cid=HP_FR_2-19-2016_dPFD_fGC_xLIDyL1-C_&lang=eng Can someone please explain that? and what if someone chooses not to believe because he or she didn't see good reasons? Quote Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is not something ethereal, floating loosely in the air. Faith does not fall upon us by chance or stay with us by birthright. It is, as the scriptures say, “substance … , the evidence of things not seen.”Faith emits a spiritual light, and that light is discernible. Faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from heaven that comes as we choose to believe and as we seek it and hold on to it. Your faith is either growing stronger or becoming weaker. Faith is a principle of power, important not only in this life but also in our progression beyond the veil I don't understand any of that, it is very ambiguous and the words are not well defined. Can someone please explain? Is your reason for choosing to believe also a gift? I am confused! Faith is a gift, but choosing to believe is not a gift? and how is choosing to believe different from Faith?
Sanpitch Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 24 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: " Faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from heaven that comes as we choose to believe and as we seek it and hold on to it " https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/faith-is-not-by-chance-but-by-choice?cid=HP_FR_2-19-2016_dPFD_fGC_xLIDyL1-C_&lang=eng Can someone please explain that? and what if someone chooses not to believe because he or she didn't see good reasons? I don't understand any of that, it is very ambiguous and the words are not well defined. Can someone please explain? Is your reason for choosing to believe also a gift? I am confused! Faith is a gift, but choosing to believe is not a gift? and how is choosing to believe different from Faith? I think you don't understand it is because, ".....it is very ambiguous and the words are not well defined." In other words it's nonsense.
Meadowchik Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Good questions. It's late here and I need sleep so I'll be brief. Maybe it helps to think of faith more as a process or even a vehicle: the vehicle itself a gift, our various uses of the vehicle a choice, and the outcome of the combined gift and choices as the spiritual result of those spiritual choices.
Bobbieaware Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: " Faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from heaven that comes as we choose to believe and as we seek it and hold on to it " https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/faith-is-not-by-chance-but-by-choice?cid=HP_FR_2-19-2016_dPFD_fGC_xLIDyL1-C_&lang=eng Can someone please explain that? and what if someone chooses not to believe because he or she didn't see good reasons? I don't understand any of that, it is very ambiguous and the words are not well defined. Can someone please explain? Is your reason for choosing to believe also a gift? I am confused! Faith is a gift, but choosing to believe is not a gift? and how is choosing to believe different from Faith? You're overlooking the part that says "Faith emits a spiritual light, and that light is DISCERNABLE." You"re also overlooking the part that says faith is not ethereal, but is an actual substance of power. Just because someone has not discerned and experienced the spiritual light and power that resides within faith, that does not mean spiritual light and power are not real. Faith is a substance of such overwhelming spiritual light and power that even the smallest particle of faith, if it is genuine, can move mighty mountains. If, for whatever reason, someone is not yet able to exercise the smallest particle of authentic faith, that does not mean those who have experienced the discernable light and power of faith have not had genuine spiritual experiences. Paul says until one can exercise genuine faith he will be knocking his head against the wall in perplexity because the natural man (a man who is not yet capable of exercising real faith) is incapable of understanding the realm of faith. Edited February 23, 2016 by Bobbieaware Grammar 2
Sanpitch Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 And where does that leave the faith of JWs who die rather than except a blood transfusion, which I have known those who that happened to? And the faith of Muslims who die for their faith. Are just the lucky ones those who happen to have faith in the right religion. Where did those who have faith in the wrong thing go wrong?
Bobbieaware Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 2 hours ago, Sanpitch said: And where does that leave the faith of JWs who die rather than except a blood transfusion, which I have known those who that happened to? And the faith of Muslims who die for their faith. Are just the lucky ones those who happen to have faith in the right religion. Where did those who have faith in the wrong thing go wrong? It's a learning experience. In the end, all but the sons of perdition will accept the Christ of the Latter-day Saints, and will be delivered from sin and physical & spiritual death through accepting the Restored Gospel. 1
Sanpitch Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 51 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: It's a learning experience. In the end, all but the sons of perdition will accept the Christ of the Latter-day Saints, and will be delivered from sin and physical & spiritual death through accepting the Restored Gospel. All you are saying is that you have the true faith and all the others will have to eventually accept that. But...but that is what they all say.
Bobbieaware Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: All you are saying is that you have the true faith and all the others will have to eventually accept that. But...but that is what they all say. No that's not "what they all say." There are rather large numbers of non-LDS Christians who believe the Latter-day Saints who remain faithful to their religion are never going to come around to accept their non-LDS version of true religion, and for that reason they feel assured the Mormoms are going to suffer the miseries of unspeakably horrific torture for all eternity.
Glenn101 Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 There is always going to be a dissonance between faith and reason. There are many who have had a spiritual experience powerful enough to convince them that Jesus is the Christ and the LDS Church is indeed the Church of Jesus Christ restored in these latter days. They cannot really fathom why someone could walk away from it after claiming at one time to have had a testimony. On the other side of the coin are those whose reason tells them that things just do not add up as science continues to push the boundaries of knowledge. They seem not to be able to fathom how a seemingly otherwise intelligent person can continue to believe in the face of all of the discoveries in the various fields of the sciences that have seemed to throw some serious doubts on the faith claims. And there are those caught in the middle not knowing which way to turn. There is no amount of discourse that will be able to bridge that gap. Faith is a choice. It is not obtained by chance, the toss of a die, the drawing of a straw. Even a powerful spiritual experience can be dulled by wanting something else other than what God has promised. Glenn 1
The Nehor Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 9 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: " Faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from heaven that comes as we choose to believe and as we seek it and hold on to it " https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/faith-is-not-by-chance-but-by-choice?cid=HP_FR_2-19-2016_dPFD_fGC_xLIDyL1-C_&lang=eng Can someone please explain that? and what if someone chooses not to believe because he or she didn't see good reasons? I don't understand any of that, it is very ambiguous and the words are not well defined. Can someone please explain? Is your reason for choosing to believe also a gift? I am confused! Faith is a gift, but choosing to believe is not a gift? and how is choosing to believe different from Faith? When you choose to believe or even choose to desire to believe God can grant the blessing of faith when we seek it and ask for it. If you cannot find a good reason to believe or want it to be true then the gospel cannot offer you much. Occasionally God uses more drastic measures. I know at one point I was like a horse that was led to water and then had my face shoved into the water and my choice was to either drink or drown.
The Nehor Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 2 hours ago, Glenn101 said: On the other side of the coin are those whose reason tells them that things just do not add up as science continues to push the boundaries of knowledge. They seem not to be able to fathom how a seemingly otherwise intelligent person can continue to believe in the face of all of the discoveries in the various fields of the sciences that have seemed to throw some serious doubts on the faith claims. I doubt that the number who doubt because of scientific claims is that large. In the end it is a choice and no one is forced one way by the spirit or forced the other way by pure reason.
janderich Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 13 hours ago, Sanpitch said: And where does that leave the faith of JWs who die rather than except a blood transfusion, which I have known those who that happened to? And the faith of Muslims who die for their faith. Are just the lucky ones those who happen to have faith in the right religion. Where did those who have faith in the wrong thing go wrong? Belief by itself does not bring forth the blessings of faith. If as your initial quote said, it is a substance of power and is discernable then one must discern and act in accordance with such power. If a person is so weak in faith that they cannot discern how to act then they will easily go astray and when they go astray all their false actions will not bring down the powers of heaven. However, on the other hand they discern what is right and act accordingly then the heavens will work for their good. 1
Sanpitch Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 37 minutes ago, janderich said: Belief by itself does not bring forth the blessings of faith. If as your initial quote said, it is a substance of power and is discernable then one must discern and act in accordance with such power. If a person is so weak in faith that they cannot discern how to act then they will easily go astray and when they go astray all their false actions will not bring down the powers of heaven. However, on the other hand they discern what is right and act accordingly then the heavens will work for their good. It will take me awhile to figure out exactly what you are saying.
stemelbow Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 It seems everyone is walking around this earth with some amount of faith. And that faith is good and is from God. God grants it to each and let's us have at it. He who is an unbeliever is no better than I in the eyes of God. He wants each to get the most out of this life. Faith is granted to both of us as we each stagger along in life, helping us understand what we feel is important.
Bobbieaware Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 23 minutes ago, stemelbow said: It seems everyone is walking around this earth with some amount of faith. And that faith is good and is from God. God grants it to each and let's us have at it. He who is an unbeliever is no better than I in the eyes of God. He wants each to get the most out of this life. Faith is granted to both of us as we each stagger along in life, helping us understand what we feel is important. I would say faith is a spiritual power given to men so that they have the means to come to learn what's important to God. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 18 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: " Faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from heaven that comes as we choose to believe and as we seek it and hold on to it " https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/faith-is-not-by-chance-but-by-choice?cid=HP_FR_2-19-2016_dPFD_fGC_xLIDyL1-C_&lang=eng Can someone please explain that? and what if someone chooses not to believe because he or she didn't see good reasons? I don't understand any of that, it is very ambiguous and the words are not well defined. Can someone please explain? Is your reason for choosing to believe also a gift? I am confused! Faith is a gift, but choosing to believe is not a gift? and how is choosing to believe different from Faith? I can see your point. It is a choice.
Calm Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, stemelbow said: ...He who is an unbeliever is no better than I in the eyes of God.... Are you saying we have no control over what we do with our gift of faith? Or that we are not measured by how we use our gift? Or are you saying the reverse? Edited February 23, 2016 by Calm
stemelbow Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Calm said: Are you saying we have no control over what we do with our gift of faith? Or that we are not measured by how we use our gift? Or are you saying the reverse? Neither. I'm saying no matter our circumstance in life, where we live, God loves the person. At least I hope so. He does not favor those who are members over those who aren't.. At least I hope so.
Storm Rider Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 22 hours ago, Sanpitch said: And where does that leave the faith of JWs who die rather than except a blood transfusion, which I have known those who that happened to? And the faith of Muslims who die for their faith. Are just the lucky ones those who happen to have faith in the right religion. Where did those who have faith in the wrong thing go wrong? That one note instrument is always reliable. What do you think about their faith? If it is faith why wouldn't God value it every bit as much as he values faith from other people. Do you think JWs and Muslims are somehow unique? The scriptures teach us that God values all faith because he is the author of all truth. This is not a difficult concept. Do you think that the Church teaches that the faith of others is without value? If so, please provide a reference.
pogi Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 On February 22, 2016 at 2:48 PM, TheSkepticChristian said: and how is choosing to believe different from Faith? Faith is the "the principle of action in all intelligent beings (Lectures of Faith)." Choosing to believe that a good education and hard work will reward you in the end is not enough to acquire the reward, you actually have to follow your belief (put it into action). That is the difference.
Sanpitch Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 15 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: That one note instrument is always reliable. What do you think about their faith? If it is faith why wouldn't God value it every bit as much as he values faith from other people. Do you think JWs and Muslims are somehow unique? The scriptures teach us that God values all faith because he is the author of all truth. This is not a difficult concept. Do you think that the Church teaches that the faith of others is without value? If so, plehase provide a reference. I don't know that the church teaches anything other than pray and read the BofM until you get a strong testimony. So much of the church revolves around having a strong testimony and faith. There's even meetings devoted to telling others about your faith and testimony. I didn't think that the faith in other things amounted to much. How about the strong faith of the followers of Warren Jeffs? Is that rewarded also?
pogi Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: I don't know that the church teaches anything other than pray and read the BofM until you get a strong testimony. So much of the church revolves around having a strong testimony and faith. There's even meetings devoted to telling others about your faith and testimony. I didn't think that the faith in other things amounted to much. How about the strong faith of the followers of Warren Jeffs? Is that rewarded also? I can't find the exact quote, but I remember President Hinckley (I believe it was) stating something to the effect: "we should strive to help Catholics become better Catholics, and Muslims become better Muslims...etc." The faith of others is greatly valued in Mormonism when it is applied to true principles. We don't claim to be the sole source of true principles, or to understand all truth. “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may” (Joseph Smith). “A man in search of truth has no peculiar system to sustain, nor peculiar dogma to defend or theory to uphold; he embraces all truth, and that truth, like the sun in the firmament, shines forth and spreads its effulgent rays over all creation, and if men will divest themselves of bias and prejudice, and prayerfully and conscientiously search after truth, they will find it wherever they turn their attention” (John Taylor). “It was the occupation of Jesus Christ and his Apostles to propagate the Gospel of salvation and the principles of eternal life to the world, and it is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their elder brother, being at their head), to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, to mechanism of every kind, to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, and bring it to Zion” (Brigham Young). Yes, the church teaches to do more than just "pray and read the BofM" in our quest for truth and faith. Edited February 23, 2016 by pogi
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