Sanpitch Posted February 18, 2016 Author Posted February 18, 2016 17 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I think we may have inherited the same genes. We probably do Tacenda, I just picked out the ones I wanted and ignored the rest.
Jeanne Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 All I know is that I wish now that I could sit down with both of my grandmothers..and ask them a thousand questions! I should have given them a pen and paper and said..WRITE!! Last year, I found out that my maternal great-grandfather was involved with the MMM Would I love to know what happened.and why? You bet! He was in Millard County so wondering how this would have been connected. Not easy to live with.but would be open to understanding. 1
Deborah Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 5 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Sarcasm is hard to carry off in writing. I caught it, lol. Just so you know. 1
Jeanne Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, Deborah said: I caught it, lol. Just so you know. Me too!!
Tacenda Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 1 minute ago, Sanpitch said: We probably do Tacenda, I just picked out the ones I wanted and ignored the rest. I just finished a podcast with Van Hale called Mormon Miscellaneous Podbean. He had on a frequent guest and they were talking about scriptures, and the guest mentioned that sometimes the scriptures in the Bible just get in the way, so we can't be all bad. He's very TBM, and they were discussing Martin's Cove in Wyoming. And the story of the Martin Handcart Company. He's served a couple of years at Martin's Cove, sounds like it would be a fun mission for these senior couples. He didn't mention our ancestor Mary Ann Mellor and the pie in the road incident, but he mentioned the movie of the "17 Miracles". http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/e/17-lds-handcart-project-others/
Tacenda Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 7 minutes ago, Jeanne said: All I know is that I wish now that I could sit down with both of my grandmothers..and ask them a thousand questions! I should have given them a pen and paper and said..WRITE!! Last year, I found out that my maternal great-grandfather was involved with the MMM Would I love to know what happened.and why? You bet! He was in Millard County so wondering how this would have been connected. Not easy to live with.but would be open to understanding. Wish we both had that forethought about asking our grandmothers more! Maybe it will prompt me to be a better journal keeper. I'm terrible. Wow, I'm sure your great-grandfather probably showed up thinking it was going to be different than what he was told or thought. Poor guy, I can't imagine the guilt that would be associated with any part in it. I hope he hightailed it out of there. But some men are lunatics and he may have been shot for deserting. I'm sure there is a story and half about it! And hope one day you can read/hear some good news. 1
Sanpitch Posted February 18, 2016 Author Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I just finished a podcast with Van Hale called Mormon Miscellaneous Podbean. He had on a frequent guest and they were talking about scriptures, and the guest mentioned that sometimes the scriptures in the Bible just get in the way, so we can't be all bad. He's very TBM, and they were discussing Martin's Cove in Wyoming. And the story of the Martin Handcart Company. He's served a couple of years at Martin's Cove, sounds like it would be a fun mission for these senior couples. He didn't mention our ancestor Mary Ann Mellor and the pie in the road incident, but he mentioned the movie of the "17 Miracles". http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/e/17-lds-handcart-project-others/ I watched "17 Miracles" a couple of weeks ago. I've read the story over and over but to see it in motion brings it to life more than I expected. To starve and freeze especially when you have young kids with you is hard to imagine. Animals usually do fine in the cold if they have feed, without feed they are vulnerable to the cold. It's probably the same with people. Edited February 18, 2016 by Sanpitch
Duncan Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: I watched "17 Miracles" a couple of weeks ago. I've read the story over and over but to see in it in motion brings it to life more than I expected. To starve and freeze especially when you have young kids with you is hard to imagine. Animals usually do fine in the cold if they have feed, without feed they are vulnerable to the cold. It's probably the same with people. being cold, wet and starving is no picnic and having to go to the Loo doesn't help-I am Canadian, I know these things all too well 1
USU78 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 8 hours ago, Gray said: I guess I'll have to appeal to leaders of the church to make my point for me. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/04/father-come-home?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1994/10/being-a-righteous-husband-and-father?lang=eng I'll repeat my challenge to Gray: "So ... I think I'll ask for some evidence here that your use of the term "sacrifice" to describe the phenomenon is warranted. Demonstrate the harm. Demonstrate the carelessness. Demonstrate the callousness. Demonstrate the damage." 1
Gray Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 2 hours ago, USU78 said: Please don't anybody go deeper on the source of the covenant, but in response to this ^ I say this > The Law of Consecration requires that each member of the Kingdom consecrate everything, including their lives if necessary, to the Kingdom. This means that every, and I mean even the non-endowed, member must consecrate every and I mean everything he has to building up the Kingdom. Tithing merely approximates this, and all we covenant to do is not presently asked of us. If asked, however, we must, if we have integrity, comply with the request. You have an odd way of looking at Mormonism, apparently, which misses so fundamental a thing as covenant and consecration. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/consecrate-law-of-consecration The law of consecration is not about sacrifice the well being of children in order to increase the number of baptisms. It may be about sacrificing comfort and convenience, but not children. Modern church leaders understand that the family is the basic unit of the church. Anything that weakens families also weakens the church.
Gray Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, USU78 said: I'll repeat my challenge to Gray: "So ... I think I'll ask for some evidence here that your use of the term "sacrifice" to describe the phenomenon is warranted. Demonstrate the harm. Demonstrate the carelessness. Demonstrate the callousness. Demonstrate the damage." Asked and answered. Did you read from the talks I quoted? Edited February 18, 2016 by Gray
USU78 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, Gray said: Asked and answered. Did you read from the talks I quoted? Not asked and answered. I asked you to demonstrate the harm, etc., suffered by the XIXth Century missionaries' families. If you can't, you can't. That's fine and doesn't, of itself, mean anything. But let's not get into the habit of assuming harm simply because we disagree with the covenant obligations and, therefore, infer harm. 1
Popular Post strappinglad Posted February 18, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 18, 2016 We have NO CLUE what life was like during the late 1800s and early 1900s. We in North America now live in such comfort that to be without a cell phone is absolutely terrifying. My father grew up living in a dug out back in a hill on the prairie where temperatures during winter hit - 40 for months at a time. When he was 6 years old he had to harness and drive a team of horses to haul grain and hay. Nobody thought much about it. It wasn't a sacrifice so much as just the reality of life in those days. One got tough or died, and a lot of people did die. If a family had 8 kids most of them worked and contributed to the survival of the group. The father didn't have a lot of time to smooze with his kids, he worked with them and taught them while working. Play time ---- almost non- existent . If we were to judge the parenting practices of the early 1900s by today's standards , most parents would be in jail and their kids in foster homes. Presentism is nonsense . Judge by the results of their efforts. 7
Sanpitch Posted February 18, 2016 Author Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) I haven't followed all the discussion here closely but I wish those who feel fine with hardships of the earlier day people in the church because of "sacrifice" "covenant obligations" and scriptures supporting the same, would go through the same trials that those people went through and come back and tell us about how you support it. I'll admit there are some who would claim it's a good experience but what is the point in suffering for no purpose? Edited February 18, 2016 by Sanpitch
Deborah Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: 'll admit there are some who would claim it's a good experience but what is the point in suffering for no purpose? What makes you think it had no purpose. It brought in many converts, strengthened faith and taught self-reliance. 1
Deborah Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: We have NO CLUE what life was like during the late 1800s and early 1900s. And this is where Presentism comes in. Life was hard in those days, especially on the frontier. It was what people were acclimated to. We can't look at those times with our modern circumstances and judge fairly. 4
Calm Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: what is the point in suffering for no purpose? People would probably agree with you on this. It is applying it to the situation you are that would be debated though...as demonstrated by Deborah, for example.
Sanpitch Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, Deborah said: What makes you think it had no purpose. It brought in many converts, strengthened faith and taught self-reliance. You are looking at the positive, I'm looking at the negative, as in my grandmother's case. They had not been married for long and husband had a small band of sheep and the beginnings of an income, called on a two year mission with grandmother expecting. Grandmother needed to sell the band of sheep and any other items of any value. Grandfather comes home and has nothing, so he herds sheep for someone else about sixty miles away so he's rarely home. At one point has an accident and dies. Now tell me about the converts, strengthened faith and self-reliance gained. He probably hardly knew his family. Edited February 19, 2016 by Sanpitch word change 2
Sanpitch Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, Jeanne said: All I know is that I wish now that I could sit down with both of my grandmothers..and ask them a thousand questions! I should have given them a pen and paper and said..WRITE!! Last year, I found out that my maternal great-grandfather was involved with the MMM Would I love to know what happened.and why? You bet! He was in Millard County so wondering how this would have been connected. Not easy to live with.but would be open to understanding. Ah...Jeanne, what's great-grandfather doing in Millard County? That's where my granddad herded sheep somewhere around 1910-20, in the Cricket Mountains. In those days there probably wasn't more than a couple dozen people in that area. Edited February 19, 2016 by Sanpitch
sunstoned Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 My mission president was called on a mission as a young man after he was married. He left his wife for two years. I don't know if they had children yet or not. Judging by his age, I would guess this was in the 1920's or 30's. I don't know how wide spread this practice was at the time.
Guest Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Makes me wonder if our faith will ever be as strong, or as mighty as those in the early Church.
Avatar4321 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Perhaps the reason we don't do it the same way is that the Lord accepted the sacrifice of our forbearers 2
Duncan Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Just now, Avatar4321 said: Perhaps the reason we don't do it the same way is that the Lord accepted the sacrifice of our forbearers but we don't get off scott free though, I mean i'm willing to take that offer but I can't speak for others
Gray Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, USU78 said: Not asked and answered. I asked you to demonstrate the harm, etc., suffered by the XIXth Century missionaries' families. If you can't, you can't. That's fine and doesn't, of itself, mean anything. But let's not get into the habit of assuming harm simply because we disagree with the covenant obligations and, therefore, infer harm. If you can't be bothered to read the general authority statements I quoted, I'm afraid I can't help you. What must you think of the leaders of the church for not allowing fathers of young children to serve missions, though? From your comments here you must take a rather dim view of their position. Edited February 19, 2016 by Gray
Gray Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 12 hours ago, Pa Pa said: Makes me wonder if our faith will ever be as strong, or as mighty as those in the early Church. Perhaps we have stronger faith in the sanctity of the home now.
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