JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 12 hours ago, Pa Pa said: Makes me wonder if our faith will ever be as strong, or as mighty as those in the early Church. 12 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: Perhaps the reason we don't do it the same way is that the Lord accepted the sacrifice of our forbearers 44 minutes ago, Gray said: Perhaps we have stronger faith in the sanctity of the home now. Or perhaps they were simply more valiant in pre-mortality, so given more trials and opportunities in this life, and may receive a more glorious crown in the next. Martyr's crowns, worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory, and all that.
Gray Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Or perhaps they were simply more valiant in pre-mortality, so given more trials and opportunities in this life, and may receive a more glorious crown in the next. Martyr's crowns, worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory, and all that. Unfortunately this kind of martyrdom takes its toll on children, not just on the missionary.
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Gray said: Unfortunately this kind of martyrdom takes its toll on children, not just on the missionary. And you don't think they will likewise receive more blessings because of their sacrifices? When did sacrificing to the Lord become such a bad thing?
Gray Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: And you don't think they will likewise receive more blessings because of their sacrifices? When did sacrificing to the Lord become such a bad thing? No, I don't believe that at all. I believe they probably reaped the consequences that come when a parent is absent from his child's life. In the OP's story God didn't intervene by feeding the family while the missionary was away. So why would anyone think that God will bless the family with the benefits of a two-parent household when one parent is absent? It's like this. Say you have a math test in the morning. Instead you elected to stay up all night reading scriptures. Is God going to intervene and bless you with the answers because you did something good? No. You should have studied for the test. There is a time and a place for everything. Edited February 19, 2016 by Gray 1
USU78 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 2 hours ago, Gray said: If you can't be bothered to read the general authority statements I quoted, I'm afraid I can't help you. What must you think of the leaders of the church for not allowing fathers of young children to serve missions, though? From your comments here you must take a rather dim view of their position. As I thought. Gray has no answers. Cannot demonstrate harm. Got it. 2
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, Gray said: No, I don't believe that at all. I believe they probably reaped the consequences that come when a parent is absent from his child's life. In the OP's story God didn't intervene by feeding the family while the missionary was away. So why would anyone think that God will bless the family with the benefits of a two-parent household when one parent is absent? It's like this. Say you have a math test in the morning. Instead you elected to stay up all night reading scriptures. Is God going to intervene and bless you with the answers because you did something good? No. You should have studied for the test. There is a time and a place for everything. No, it's like the Savior said: Matthew 6:24 ¶No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. And then when your sacrifice is complete: D&C 126:1 Dear and well-beloved brother, Brigham Young, verily thus saith the Lord unto you: My servant Brigham, it is no more required at your hand to leave your family as in times past, for your offering is acceptable to me. 2 I have seen your labor and toil in journeyings for my name. 3 I therefore command you to send my word abroad, and take especial care of your family from this time, henceforth and forever. Amen. 3
Guest Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 4 hours ago, Gray said: Perhaps we have stronger faith in the sanctity of the home now. People serving in the Lord's service with family difficulties is nothing new. Abraham and Isaac makes that clear, this single act destroyed Abraham family and blessed all the families of the earth. Suffering and sadness are a conratant. The difference now is that we do not call missionaries to leave wives and children, in the first century of the Church we did not have that luxury. The service we give is to effect (or is it "affect") the eternities, we labor while the sun is shinning amid all it worries.
Gray Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 3 hours ago, USU78 said: As I thought. Gray has no answers. Cannot demonstrate harm. Got it. Obviously you're not genuinely interested in answers.
Gray Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: No, it's like the Savior said: Matthew 6:24 ¶No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. And then when your sacrifice is complete: D&C 126:1 Dear and well-beloved brother, Brigham Young, verily thus saith the Lord unto you: My servant Brigham, it is no more required at your hand to leave your family as in times past, for your offering is acceptable to me. 2 I have seen your labor and toil in journeyings for my name. 3 I therefore command you to send my word abroad, and take especial care of your family from this time, henceforth and forever. Amen. That's a beautiful passage, but that's not how it works in real life. Current church policies indicate a real-world approach to family relationships.
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, Gray said: That's a beautiful passage, but that's not how it works in real life. Current church policies indicate a real-world approach to family relationships. And as some have said here, require less sacrifice, which in turn would generate less faith unto salvation. 1
Avatar4321 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Or perhaps they were simply more valiant in pre-mortality, so given more trials and opportunities in this life, and may receive a more glorious crown in the next. Martyr's crowns, worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory, and all that. the Lord has given us commandments for our own day on how to share the gospel. It's better to obey than to sacrifice. we have our own trials to face
Avatar4321 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: And as some have said here, require less sacrifice, which in turn would generate less faith unto salvation. our sacrifices might be different but that doesn't mean they are any less
Sanpitch Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 To my mind I don't understand the thinking here by some, but I'm not totally devoted to the Gospel. If you sacrifice a lot and lead a very uncomfortable life such as guys going on missions and leaving families at home unsupported then you gain a strong testimony and have a better standing in your salvation. The worse off you are then the better standing you have with God. I'm glad I'm not devoted. If the sacrifice thing is true I can't imagine how high the glory would be for the Martin or Willie Handcart Company people who starved and froze to death. What about those who live now with every comfort of life, they are going nowhere in the hereafter.
The Nehor Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 9 hours ago, Gray said: Unfortunately this kind of martyrdom takes its toll on children, not just on the missionary. No, and like the martyrdom among the people of Ammon God can and does make up the difference for what we are unable to do because we are serving Him. 1
The Nehor Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 5 hours ago, Gray said: That's a beautiful passage, but that's not how it works in real life. Current church policies indicate a real-world approach to family relationships. Clearly the Savior had no idea what he was talking about. Why do we bother quoting him anyways? 2
The Nehor Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 3 hours ago, Sanpitch said: To my mind I don't understand the thinking here by some, but I'm not totally devoted to the Gospel. If you sacrifice a lot and lead a very uncomfortable life such as guys going on missions and leaving families at home unsupported then you gain a strong testimony and have a better standing in your salvation. The worse off you are then the better standing you have with God. I'm glad I'm not devoted. If the sacrifice thing is true I can't imagine how high the glory would be for the Martin or Willie Handcart Company people who starved and froze to death. What about those who live now with every comfort of life, they are going nowhere in the hereafter. I don't think I have ever been happier then when I had virtually nothing and was in strained circumstances for God and he poured happiness down on me. I think you are missing out. 2
Gray Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 On 2/19/2016 at 3:26 PM, JLHPROF said: And as some have said here, require less sacrifice, which in turn would generate less faith unto salvation. Ideally sacrifice should be giving up nice things for yourself, not giving up essential things that your children require to become well-rounded, functional, happy adults.
Gray Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 On 2/20/2016 at 9:04 PM, The Nehor said: No, and like the martyrdom among the people of Ammon God can and does make up the difference for what we are unable to do because we are serving Him. No, God doesn't make up for anyone's negligent parenting, no matter what the excuse. Natural consequences follow.
Gray Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 On 2/20/2016 at 9:05 PM, The Nehor said: Clearly the Savior had no idea what he was talking about. Why do we bother quoting him anyways? Obviously the church doesn't think that a literal interpretation of those passages work. We don't operate like that on any level - not anymore.
USU78 Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 On 2/19/2016 at 2:17 PM, Gray said: Obviously you're not genuinely interested in answers. Sure I am. Hence my request for a demonstration of harm, not a repeated declaration that a married man with children who went on a mission was perforce harming wife and children. You have repeatedly made the assertion. Please provide evidence that harm came to wives and children as a proximate result of fathers/husbands going on missions. In doing so, you are going to have to use a definition of "harm" that is not objectionable, avoid the presentist fallacy, and take into consideration compensatory blessings. Have at it! 1
USU78 Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 On 2/17/2016 at 3:13 PM, Gray said: The OP is a very clear case of sacrificing a family for missionary work. Being a good spouse and parent requires a heavy time commitment. It's not an obligation that can be fulfilled via pony express. As we say in the church now, there is no success that can compensate for failure in the home. When you're losing, pound the table, claim "clarity." You surely studied at the yBu college of law.
Gray Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Sure I am. Hence my request for a demonstration of harm, not a repeated declaration that a married man with children who went on a mission was perforce harming wife and children. You have repeatedly made the assertion. Please provide evidence that harm came to wives and children as a proximate result of fathers/husbands going on missions. In doing so, you are going to have to use a definition of "harm" that is not objectionable, avoid the presentist fallacy, and take into consideration compensatory blessings. Have at it! As you've ignored my previous citations completely, I'm confident that you're not arguing in good faith. You'll be going on my ignore list, FYI. Nothing personal.
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 6 hours ago, Gray said: No, God doesn't make up for anyone's negligent parenting, no matter what the excuse. Natural consequences follow. The Sons of Ammon disagree.
Gray Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 26 minutes ago, The Nehor said: The Sons of Ammon disagree. The sons of Ammon have not registered for this forum.
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 25 minutes ago, Gray said: The sons of Ammon have not registered for this forum. Neither have the children of early missionaries you seem to think you are defending. If both are required to be silent then why does this thread exist.
Recommended Posts