volgadon Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) I lean towards Esther being real. Edited February 3, 2016 by volgadon
Tacenda Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) Donkeys talking, serpents in staffs, God commanding Abraham to kill his son, God commanding JS to marry other wives, world flood...too many to count. Some scriptures are now represented as allegories or parables, but no one presented certain ones as such growing up. It leaves one to start distrusting the Bible, but relieved that God just might be a loving God vs. a God of wrath. Edited February 3, 2016 by Tacenda 1
CV75 Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 17 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Some people claim the story of Noah's ark never happened, same with the Tower of Babel. Of all the standard works, what stories don't you believe really happened, and were instead just made up stories to show morals? This can be from all the standard works. Any story. Or do you believe absolutely everything in the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price happened? I'm just curious what people believe. The origin story of Baby Huey.
Freedom Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 I believe LDS doctrine requires Job to be a real person. The book of Job, however, is an allegory based on his life.
thesometimesaint Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 Depends on how literal you want to make them.
Calm Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 15 hours ago, volgadon said: I lean towards Esther being real. Cool. I loved that story growing up mainly because of this great illustration that accompanied a bible scripture story book my mom had.
PeterPear Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 17 hours ago, volgadon said: I believe that that the books of Job and Jonah are fiction. Why? When the Lord told Joseph Smith he was not yet as Job, the Lord and Creator of the Universe and all things therein and who knows all things and has all power - LIED to Joseph Smith - all to comfort the Prophet on a false story? D&C 121:10 By extension, then you have to believe the account of the Brother of Jared seeing the Lord is fiction, because the Brother of Jared said the Lord cannot lie: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/3.12?lang=eng#11. Ether 3:12. For someone who sets himself up as a light to the world by speaking at Fair Mormon Conferences, you have an odd belief system. (Which is why I consider Fair Mormon to be worthless.) It's nothing personal, of course. LOL!
volgadon Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 5 hours ago, PeterPear said: Why? When the Lord told Joseph Smith he was not yet as Job, the Lord and Creator of the Universe and all things therein and who knows all things and has all power - LIED to Joseph Smith - all to comfort the Prophet on a false story? D&C 121:10 By extension, then you have to believe the account of the Brother of Jared seeing the Lord is fiction, because the Brother of Jared said the Lord cannot lie: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/3.12?lang=eng#11. Ether 3:12. For someone who sets himself up as a light to the world by speaking at Fair Mormon Conferences, you have an odd belief system. (Which is why I consider Fair Mormon to be worthless.) It's nothing personal, of course. LOL! All that D&C verse requires is that Job be proverbial for his suffering. It is thus not a strong argument against the book of Job being fictional. Because the strength of the Lord's message of consolation to Joseph relies on proverbial associations, it is not a matter of lying. I can certainly respect the position of those who believe that it isn't fiction, but you aren't going to convince me on the strength of that verse. BTW, you might have mistaken me for another. I've never attended a FAIR conference in my life, let alone presented at one. 4
Robert F. Smith Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 On 2/2/2016 at 1:52 PM, VideoGameJunkie said: Some people claim the story of Noah's ark never happened, same with the Tower of Babel. Of all the standard works, what stories don't you believe really happened, and were instead just made up stories to show morals? This can be from all the standard works. Any story. Or do you believe absolutely everything in the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price happened? I'm just curious what people believe. You need to read Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend, Hamlet's Mill: An Essay on Myth and the Frame of Time (Boston: Gambit, 1969/ reprint Godine, 1977). That will help you see what the stories are really all about, and that all of them are true.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 5 hours ago, PeterPear said: Why? When the Lord told Joseph Smith he was not yet as Job, the Lord and Creator of the Universe and all things therein and who knows all things and has all power - LIED to Joseph Smith - all to comfort the Prophet on a false story? D&C 121:10 By extension, then you have to believe the account of the Brother of Jared seeing the Lord is fiction, because the Brother of Jared said the Lord cannot lie: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/3.12?lang=eng#11. Ether 3:12. For someone who sets himself up as a light to the world by speaking at Fair Mormon Conferences, you have an odd belief system. (Which is why I consider Fair Mormon to be worthless.) It's nothing personal, of course. LOL! This, for example, is a false tale told by an . . . . 1
Freedom Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You need to read Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend, Hamlet's Mill: An Essay on Myth and the Frame of Time (Boston: Gambit, 1969/ reprint Godine, 1977). That will help you see what the stories are really all about, and that all of them are true. Is this the one? http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hamlets_mill/hamletmill.htm
Freedom Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 27 minutes ago, volgadon said: All that D&C verse requires is that Job be proverbial for his suffering. It is thus not a strong argument against the book of Job being fictional. Because the strength of the Lord's message of consolation to Joseph relies on proverbial associations, it is not a matter of lying. I can certainly respect the position of those who believe that it isn't fiction, but you aren't going to convince me on the strength of that verse. BTW, you might have mistaken me for another. I've never attended a FAIR conference in my life, let alone presented at one. I don't think I would get much comfort if an angel came to me and told me to stop complaining about my health problems because my problems are not as bad as Pinocchio's. He was made of wood and yet he figured things out. I would probably look at he angel and say 'really? Pinocchio? What, are you the comic relief until the real angel shows up?' 1
volgadon Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, Freedom said: I don't think I would get much comfort if an angel came to me and told me to stop complaining about my health problems because my problems are not as bad as Pinocchio's. He was made of wood and yet he figured things out. I would probably look at he angel and say 'really? Pinocchio? What, are you the comic relief until the real angel shows up?' Look at it another way. If president Monson were to reveal during general conference that the Lord wants him to call members to repentance for being stingier and greedier than Ebeneezer Scrooge, would we be forced to conclude either that 1) Scrooge is real, or 2) that the Lord was lying to the prophet because Scrooge wasn't real? 3
Robert F. Smith Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 14 minutes ago, Freedom said: Is this the one? http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hamlets_mill/hamletmill.htm Yes.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 20 hours ago, Tacenda said: Donkeys talking, serpents in staffs, God commanding Abraham to kill his son, God commanding JS to marry other wives, world flood...too many to count. Some scriptures are now represented as allegories or parables, but no one presented certain ones as such growing up. It leaves one to start distrusting the Bible, but relieved that God just might be a loving God vs. a God of wrath. Baby steps, Tacenda. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Freedom said: I don't think I would get much comfort if an angel came to me and told me to stop complaining about my health problems because my problems are not as bad as Pinocchio's. He was made of wood and yet he figured things out. I would probably look at he angel and say 'really? Pinocchio? What, are you the comic relief until the real angel shows up?' Aesop's fables, Pinocchio, and Jesus' parables are all true. Edited February 4, 2016 by Robert F. Smith 3
Freedom Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes. Thanks for the reference.
Freedom Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 8 minutes ago, volgadon said: Look at it another way. If president Monson were to reveal during general conference that the Lord wants him to call members to repentance for being stingier and greedier than Ebeneezer Scrooge, would we be forced to conclude either that 1) Scrooge is real, or 2) that the Lord was lying to the prophet because Scrooge wasn't real? I don't think that is a good comparison. Scrooge is clearly a fictional character, and the name is being used as a figure of speech. Joseph viewed Job as a real person, and he was being used as a model to emulate. I see your point but I would still want to poke the angel with a stick.
volgadon Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, Freedom said: I don't think that is a good comparison. Scrooge is clearly a fictional character, and the name is being used as a figure of speech. Joseph viewed Job as a real person, and he was being used as a model to emulate. I see your point but I would still want to poke the angel with a stick. Not a figure of speech, but a proverbial greedy miser. Pinocchio is not a terribly apt counter-example because he is not considered a proverbial sufferer. Job in the D&C is not being shown as a model to emulate (I'm not entirely certain how one would emulate someone being betrayed or castigated by his friends), but is an example of a worse scenario than that faced by Joseph. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 4, 2016 Author Posted February 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, volgadon said: Not a figure of speech, but a proverbial greedy miser. Pinocchio is not a terribly apt counter-example because he is not considered a proverbial sufferer. Job in the D&C is not being shown as a model to emulate (I'm not entirely certain how one would emulate someone being betrayed or castigated by his friends), but is an example of a worse scenario than that faced by Joseph. If I were an apostle, in General Conference I'd want to quote Marge Simpson: "I don't hate you for failing. I love you for trying." Some fictional characters have great advice or stories. 1
rodheadlee Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) On 2/2/2016 at 0:59 PM, Gray said: Agreed. And whether or not any of them actually happened as written is both unlikely and irrelevant. Yeah, especially that Resurrection myth. Edited February 4, 2016 by rodheadlee
Gray Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 45 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Yeah, especially that Resurrection myth. It's just as meaningful whether it happened or not. The meaning is all in the story. 1
volgadon Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 17 minutes ago, Gray said: It's just as meaningful whether it happened or not. The meaning is all in the story. The resurrection is pretty meaningless if it did not happen as that means it won't happen to any of us. In which case, what is the point of it? 2
Gray Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, volgadon said: The resurrection is pretty meaningless if it did not happen as that means it won't happen to any of us. In which case, what is the point of it? The story only has meaning when interpreted. One interpretation I've heard for it is that it means that God is able to make everything new (an interpretation I heard from a Christian pastor). There are many possible ways to take it. On the literal level, all it means is that "once there was a man who came back from the dead." For most, the focus on interpretation seems to be reward and punishment. The point of this story means these people with be rewarded. The point of that story means those people will be punished. Traditionally we've focused on these lower order motivators, which makes it hard to encourage spiritual growth. Edited February 4, 2016 by Gray
CA Steve Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, volgadon said: Not a figure of speech, but a proverbial greedy miser. Pinocchio is not a terribly apt counter-example because he is not considered a proverbial sufferer. Job in the D&C is not being shown as a model to emulate (I'm not entirely certain how one would emulate someone being betrayed or castigated by his friends), but is an example of a worse scenario than that faced by Joseph. The huge difference between a fictional character and a real one is the real one is an example of someone who actually accomplished or endured what is being asked and therefore it is possible, while in the case of a fictional character, no one knows if it is possible, so while Scrooge can used as an example of what not to do, Job carries much more weight of how to act if a real Job actually endured those things. Edited February 4, 2016 by CA Steve
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