Gray Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) I read something interesting today - a theory about the story of Abraham and Isaac: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2011/04/when-abraham-killed-isaac/ In essence, the idea is one the version of the story, from the E source, had Abraham actually kill Isaac. The redactor, using the J source, changed the story so that the angel stays Abraham's hand, in line with evolving theology. We often think of Biblical redactors as corrupting the Bible somehow (AoF #8), but maybe not so much in this case. Edited February 1, 2016 by Gray
stemelbow Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 16 minutes ago, Gray said: I read something interesting today - a theory about the story of Abraham and Isaac: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2011/04/when-abraham-killed-isaac/ In essence, the idea is one the version of the story, from the E source, had Abraham actually kill Isaac. The redactor, using the J source, changed the story so that the angel stays Abraham's hand, in line with evolving theology. We often think of Biblical redactors as corrupting the Bible somehow (AoF #8), but maybe not so much in this case. or the whole story is a fabrication. Abraham was found preaching, "you try and sacrifice your own son and see how hard it is? It seems hard but the other day when he was whining relentlessly I almost did it. Couldn't be that bad, I figure." Then way down the road when people starting writing this stuff down, the story had morphed into Abraham taking Isaac and either killing him or the angel stopping him. Either way it's effect is made, I suppose.
Gray Posted February 1, 2016 Author Posted February 1, 2016 8 minutes ago, stemelbow said: or the whole story is a fabrication. Abraham was found preaching, "you try and sacrifice your own son and see how hard it is? It seems hard but the other day when he was whining relentlessly I almost did it. Couldn't be that bad, I figure." Then way down the road when people starting writing this stuff down, the story had morphed into Abraham taking Isaac and either killing him or the angel stopping him. Either way it's effect is made, I suppose. Oh, both stories are very likely entirely mythical. It's not really about whether or not it really happened, but about what ancient peoples believed about it. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Gray said: one wasead something interesting today - a theory about the story of Abraham and Isaac: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2011/04/when-abraham-killed-isaac/ In essence, the idea is one the version of the story, from the E source, had Abraham actually kill Isaac. The redactor, using the J source, changed the story so that the angel stays Abraham's hand, in line with evolving theology. We often think of Biblical redactors as corrupting the Bible somehow (AoF #8), but maybe not so much in this case. Fortunately for us we have the Book of Abraham, written in his own hand, so we know which of these 2 sources were real and which one was fake. Due to Joseph being able to translate ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics we know that an angel of the Lord stayed Abraham's hand and Isaac survived. Edited February 1, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
phaedrus ut Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) There is nothing that can justify the morality of someone agreeing to kill their own child. A moral god would never ask such a thing and a moral person would never agree. Edit: That being said I generally agree with the Documentary Hypothesis and Friedman. Phaedrus Edited February 1, 2016 by phaedrus ut
Ahab Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 Abraham was so determined in his heart to kill Isaac that it still counted as if he had killed him, and the Lord felt that was good enough lo consider him righteous. Ancient people were all over the map in regards to what they believed about it, pretty much the same as people today. Some believed it never happened, really. Some believed it happened just as the story says. And some believed it never really happened but that Abraham should still be treated as if he really did it.
bluebell Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 23 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said: There is nothing that can justify the morality of someone agreeing to kill their own child. A moral god would never ask such a thing and a moral person would never agree. Phaedrus Why? (Remembering that the child was an adult of course, and consented to the act).
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 Isaac had to have survived because he had a son named Jacob who was later called Israel and we have all them Jews. Where else did Jacob come from if not Isaac? 1
The Nehor Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 If the whole story was made up after the fact as late as suggested it would make no sense to kill off Isaac when the whole point is that the tribes of Israel came from Israel/Jacob, Isaac's son. I don't buy the rationale given here either. It involves guesswork at to the authors and an ambiguous passage that could have also been correct if Isaac was killed but also makes sense otherwise. I guess this stuff sells like hotcakes so someone spends time thinking all this stuff up. 1
ALarson Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Abraham was so determined in his heart to kill Isaac that it still counted as if he had killed him, and the Lord felt that was good enough lo consider him righteous. Do you even read what you type and post? This made me laugh even though it's pretty crazy stuff. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 I just know if I was Isaac in that position I'd be pretty peeved. Even afterwards.
strappinglad Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, phaedrus ut said: There is nothing that can justify the morality of someone agreeing to kill their own child. A moral god would never ask such a thing and a moral person would never agree. History shows that all kinds of cultures have seen the sacrifice of their children to be very moral and often required. We may think it reprehensible and beyond the pale to do such, however, we still send our sons and daughters to war knowing full well that they could be killed or maimed.We look upon it as a sacrifice necessary of the needs of our country or God and country. Lehi sent his sons back to get the Brass Plates. I wonder how he thought that might go seeing that Laban had a small army at his disposal? People have killed their own children to avoid them being taken as slaves or abused by others of even dying slowly of starvation. If my child was facing extreme unrelenting pain with no chance of relief, I could see where I might have to end his life. If that makes me immoral, so be it. Edited February 2, 2016 by strappinglad 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 7 minutes ago, strappinglad said: History shows that all kinds of cultures have seen the sacrifice of their children to be very moral and often required. We may think it reprehensible and beyond the pale to do such, however, we still send our sons and daughters to war knowing full well that they could be killed or maimed.We look upon it as a sacrifice necessary of the needs of our country or God and country. Lehi sent his sons back to get the Brass Plates. I wonder how he thought that might go seeing that Laban had a small army at his disposal? People have killed their own children to avoid them being taken as slaves or abused by others of even dying slowly of starvation. If my child was facing extreme unrelenting pain with no chance of relief, I could see where I might have to end his life. If that makes me immoral, so be it. If that may be true, what was the reason Abraham NEEDED to kill Isaac? Nephi needed those brass plates. People go to war to defend countries and liberty. Why did Abraham need to kill Isaac?
strappinglad Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 I haven't read where God gave Abraham any reason for this sacrifice. The scriptures say God commanded it and Abraham got up and went about preparing for it. The whole thing harkens to the sacrifice of Christ and actually takes place near where Christ was Himself was crucified . There are other sources which relate some of the conversations at the time and as some have pointed out, Isaac was not all that young at the time and could have overpowered his father if needed to stop it but nothing indicates he even tried. We should remember that this was not the first conversation that Abraham had had with God. He was quite familiar with Him. If you were convinced that God was indeed God of all creation, and as such, could resurrect or re -animate Isaac at will despite him being sacrificed, then what would be the problem? My biggest worry would be how to explain all this to the wife. 1
halconero Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 Interestingly, the author of Hebrews says that Abraham was confident that Isaac would turn out okay somehow due to the covenant with God that through Isaac the world would be blessed by his seed. It says he figured that God would raise Isaac back up following the sacrifice. As for redaction, I generally have no problem with it. The Book of Mormon from The Words of Mormon onward is a redaction by the chief author of the work and his son. 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 If I was Isaac I would want to know why God wanted me killed by my father and if no reason was given, that'd be odd.
Ahab Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: If that may be true, what was the reason Abraham NEEDED to kill Isaac? Nephi needed those brass plates. People go to war to defend countries and liberty. Why did Abraham need to kill Isaac? To prove to himself that it will always work out if he just does whatever God tells him to do. And that's what we're supposed to learn from Abraham's example as well. Our Father always knows what he is doing and everything he does is always good and always for a good reason. We just need to make sure it is God we are obeying.
3DOP Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, phaedrus ut said: There is nothing that can justify the morality of someone agreeing to kill their own child. A moral god would never ask such a thing and a moral person would never agree. Edit: That being said I generally agree with the Documentary Hypothesis and Friedman. Phaedrus Some Christians hold that we are supposed to see an analogy between Abraham as God the Father and Isaac as God the Son? Presumably, you find the Father of Jesus the Son to be equally immoral? Edited February 2, 2016 by 3DOP 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 24 minutes ago, 3DOP said: Some Christians hold that we are supposed to see an analogy between Abraham as God the Father and Isaac as God the Son? Presumably, you find the Father of Jesus the Son to be equally immoral? That may be true but God wasn't the one that killed Jesus. The Romans and Jews did. Abraham would have single handedly be the one to murder his own son.
saemo Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 7 hours ago, Gray said: I read something interesting today - a theory about the story of Abraham and Isaac: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2011/04/when-abraham-killed-isaac/ In essence, the idea is one the version of the story, from the E source, had Abraham actually kill Isaac. The redactor, using the J source, changed the story so that the angel stays Abraham's hand, in line with evolving theology. We often think of Biblical redactors as corrupting the Bible somehow (AoF #8), but maybe not so much in this case. Considering the gods of other people contemporary to Abraham were practicing human sacrifice, I don't think that people of that time and culture would have seen it as unique. It is considered one of the lessons that Abraham learned, that is, that God does not require human sacrifice,. He stayed Abrahams hand and instructed him to offer an animal,sacrifice instead.
halconero Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 Interesting that no one has mentioned the Book of Abraham account wherein Abraham was to be sacrificed by his idolatrous father and was stayed by God. 1
saemo Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: If that may be true, what was the reason Abraham NEEDED to kill Isaac? Nephi needed those brass plates. People go to war to defend countries and liberty. Why did Abraham need to kill Isaac? It was a test of faith. As you will recall God had already promised Abraham that Isaac would be the father of numerous descendants. With this in mind, Hebrews 11 explains that Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead, thus God's promise with Abraham would not be broken. 1717By faith Abraham, when put to the test, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac descendants shall bear your name.”19He reasoned that God was able to raise even from the dead, and he received Isaac back as a symbol.20 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 Just now, halconero said: Interesting that no one has mentioned the Book of Abraham account wherein Abraham was to be sacrificed by his idolatrous father and was stayed by God. That's because not everyone believes the Book of Abraham is a legit translation.
strappinglad Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 14 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: That's because not everyone believes the Book of Abraham is a legit translation. Are we or are we not on a Mormon discussion board ? Not everyone believes in God .If your criterion is everyone must believe something before it can be discussed, topics will be very very few!
Calm Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) 26 minutes ago, halconero said: Interesting that no one has mentioned the Book of Abraham account wherein Abraham was to be sacrificed by his idolatrous father and was stayed by God. I thought Johnniecake referred to it in passing....so maybe half a point for him. Edited February 2, 2016 by Calm
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