VideoGameJunkie Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 I know the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978, but do you think there's still members who believe dark skin is a curse because of what scriptures and past prophets have said? And if so, are they still cursed, but just allowed to have the priesthood and temple ordinances? It's like, if they were truly cursed, when did that change or are they still?
RevTestament Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 No one is cursed because of the color of their skin. All who come unto Christ can be as white and pure as He: 3 Nephi 19:25 25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 Then why the Priesthood ban in the first place? 1
Storm Rider Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) You have more questions than anyone I have ever met. Most of the time I think you already know the answer and it confuses me that you are asking. Regardless, do you know any black members that you could talk to about this? Only a black member would be able to respond to the question. Does that make sense? When you are asking, ask if they felt it was a curse also. Be prepared to have them be offended because it is a very racist perspective. Of the black members I have known not one of them has viewed it as a curse. Isn't that strange? Edited January 27, 2016 by Storm Rider 1
Calm Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2015-fairmormon-conference/rethinking-the-mormon-racial-story
stemelbow Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) 34 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I know the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978, but do you think there's still members who believe dark skin is a curse because of what scriptures and past prophets have said? And if so, are they still cursed, but just allowed to have the priesthood and temple ordinances? It's like, if they were truly cursed, when did that change or are they still? I've met a few such Mormons. Yes. I think it's still out there to some extent. The latest, as I recall, notion of it publically being found is from an ex-BYU professor who tried to teach the inferiority stuff, as I recall. Recently, as in 2012. Edited January 27, 2016 by stemelbow
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 28 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: You have more questions than anyone I have ever met. Most of the time I think you already know the answer and it confuses me that you are asking. Regardless, do you know any black members that you could talk to about this? Only a black member would be able to respond to the question. Does that make sense? When you are asking, ask if they felt it was a curse also. Be prepared to have them be offended because it is a very racist perspective. Of the black members I have known not one of them has viewed it as a curse. Isn't that strange? I guess it's wrong to start discussions on a discussion board now. Who knew?
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 45 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: You have more questions than anyone I have ever met. Most of the time I think you already know the answer and it confuses me that you are asking. Regardless, do you know any black members that you could talk to about this? Only a black member would be able to respond to the question. Does that make sense? When you are asking, ask if they felt it was a curse also. Be prepared to have them be offended because it is a very racist perspective. Of the black members I have known not one of them has viewed it as a curse. Isn't that strange? Is Brigham Young a racist?
JLHPROF Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 37 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I guess it's wrong to start discussions on a discussion board now. Who knew? Asking questions to which you already know the answer is a rhetorical question, and is often used as a passive challenge. It's not wrong to start discussions. But motivation matters. 19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Is Brigham Young a racist? Almost everyone is racist in some way. Just a matter of degrees and application.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Asking questions to which you already know the answer is a rhetorical question, and is often used as a passive challenge. It's not wrong to start discussions. But motivation matters. Almost everyone is racist in some way. Just a matter of degrees and application. It seemed Brigham Young was a severe racist though saying mixing with the negro should be punishable by death and will always be. You can state it was the time he lived in, but it's still a horrible racist point of view. And there was a Priesthood ban for a reason.
Jeanne Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 I believe there is an entire older generation that still believe in the curse. Those who are my father's age ..born in the 20's or before..they are not about to change. I don't blame them though; that is, I understand how/why it would be hard to think differently at this point.
JLHPROF Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It seemed Brigham Young was a severe racist though saying mixing with the negro should be punishable by death and will always be. You can state it was the time he lived in, but it's still a horrible racist point of view. And there was a Priesthood ban for a reason. I can't argue that Brigham clearly said what he said. Modern revelation has corrected that mistake. However, I am not willing to ascribe ulterior motives or sinister thoughts behind what he taught. You don't have to be evil to make a bad choice - just ask most politicians. Assuming some evil motive on the part of Brigham is the worst kind of presentism. Edited January 27, 2016 by JLHPROF 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I can't argue that Brigham clearly said what he said. Modern revelation has corrected that mistake. However, I am not willing to ascribe ulterior motives or sinister thoughts behind what he taught. You don't have to be evil to make a bad choice - just ask most politicians. Assuming some evil motive on the part of Brigham is the worst kind of presentism. I'm not calling Brigham Young evil. I'm just saying he was a racist and if I was black I'd have a hard time believing in a prophet that would condemn me.
Teancum Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Then why the Priesthood ban in the first place? Good point!! I can tell you. Because men who think God is talking to them are wrong. They get all sorts of their own ideas mixed in and maybe God does not talk to them at all.
Teancum Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 54 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Is Brigham Young a racist? Yes
Russell C McGregor Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 1 minute ago, Teancum said: Good point!! I can tell you. Because men who think God is talking to them are wrong. They get all sorts of their own ideas mixed in and maybe God does not talk to them at all. While men who think God never talks to anybody can never be wrong about anything. Right?
Bernard Gui Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 58 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Is Brigham Young a racist? Is there any answer other than "yes" that you would find acceptable? 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I'm not calling Brigham Young evil. I'm just saying he was a racist and if I was black I'd have a hard time believing in a prophet that would condemn me. It's a good thing he is no longer the President of the Church, then. There are plenty of black members who would be more qualified to answer the question. By the way, he died in 1877. Edited January 27, 2016 by Bernard Gui
Teancum Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 9 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: While men who think God never talks to anybody can never be wrong about anything. Right? Yes that is right. I see you are finally coming along and casting off your dogma. Right?
JLHPROF Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 1 minute ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I'm not calling Brigham Young evil. I'm just saying he was a racist and if I was black I'd have a hard time believing in a prophet that would condemn me. No surprise the jews rejected Christ then. At various times he called them children of the devil, vipers, hypocrites etc. The same argument has been applied to Christ's treatment of the Syrophenician woman in Mark. And Joseph Smith also made "racist" statements. And don't get me started on the OT application of apparent racial discrimination by prophets.. I'm not saying racism is correct, but a mistake it doesn't change a prophetic calling.
JLHPROF Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, Teancum said: Yes that is right. I see you are finally coming along and casting off your dogma. Right? Or to be more precise, you are using it like it's a dirty word. Dogma - a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. When that authority is God himself or his inspired word, there is ZERO wrong in following "dogma".
Duncan Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 I definately think there are racists in the Church still. I, sadly, can name a few.
Teancum Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Or to be more precise, you are using it like it's a dirty word. Dogma - a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. When that authority is God himself or his inspired word, there is ZERO wrong in following "dogma". When someone claims without really any evidence other than their own claimed self contained revelation or spiritual experience that it is God himself declaring what they say is God's word well... then it is Dogma. The meme above.... applies to you more than me. And when people push forward their what they think is true as incontravertiable as from God.... then yes it is a dirty word and a dirty thing to impose on humanity.
JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 Just now, Teancum said: When someone claims without really any evidence other than their own claimed self contained revelation or spiritual experience that it is God himself declaring what they say is God's word well... then it is Dogma. The meme above.... applies to you more than me. And when people push forward their what they think is true as incontravertiable as from God.... then yes it is a dirty word and a dirty thing to impose on humanity. You say dogma, I say axiomatic. And sometimes it IS God himself declaring incontrovertible truth.
Teancum Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 Just now, JLHPROF said: You say dogma, I say axiomatic. And sometimes it IS God himself declaring incontrovertible truth. Give me some evidence God is declaring what you think is God's truth is really God speaking it. We have a dude here thinking you are headed for Hell because he thinks his truth is God's word. And he is as dogmatic as you are.
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