BHodges Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I suppose that's why it is so often emphasized that the first principle of the gospel (see Article of Faith 1) is not just faith, but faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Incidentally, I prefer the term questions to doubts. As someone pointed out here, the former can be a positive thing, the latter, not so much. As I mentioned, doubts are a healthy and vital part of learning. Whether it's positive or negative depends on what the doubt pertains to, how it's arrived at, and what we do with it. 2
bluebell Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: By "lying to our enemies," would you include any form of deceit whatsoever? What about Nephi's obtaining of the brass plates "by stratagem," including disguising himself and otherwise impersonating Laban? Edited to add: If self-defense or defending others is a justifiable reason for taking a life (and most entities, including virtually every legal jurisdiction, would say that it is) then it strikes me that self defense or defending others is a justifiable reason for lying or deception. No, i probably wouldn't include stratagem as a form of lying. Murder is the taking of an innocent life. Killing in self defense or war is not murder (under general circumstances) because the person was not innocent. That is taught in scriptures. I'm not sure that anything similar is taught about lying though. Does anyone have any examples? Buckeye, did you find the one in Moroni that you referred to in your post? It would be interesting to understand this topic better. 1
Zakuska Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: No, i probably wouldn't include stratagem as a form of lying. Murder is the taking of an innocent life. Killing in self defense or war is not murder (under general circumstances) because the person was not innocent. That is taught in scriptures. I'm not sure that anything similar is taught about lying though. Does anyone have any examples? Buckeye, did you find the one in Moroni that you referred to in your post? It would be interesting to understand this topic better. There are several examples. God instructing Moses and the Israelites to lie to Paroah and the Egyptians for the express purpose of bankrupting the egyptian empire wgen they fled. Quote The second example comes from the prophetic call of Moses. The Lord speaks to Moses and says: 17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.(Exodus 3:17) The Lord announces His intention to liberate the Israelites from slavery. But, in the very next breath, He tells Moses what to tell Pharaoh—what the "public story" should be, if you will: 18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.(Exodus 3:18) The "public stance" of Moses and the Israelite leaders is to be that they only want to go three days' journey to sacrifice. So, here the Lord is advocating some degree of deception. This extends to even deceiving their Egyptian neighbors: 21 And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty: 22 But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians.(Exodus 3:21-22) Because they are just going to make sacrifices, in the public version, the Israelites are to "borrow" valuable goods from the Egyptians. But, the true intent is clearly spelled out: they are to "spoil" (i.e. "loot") the Egyptians. Pharaoh is, of course, nobody's fool. He seems to strongly suspect that there is more to the story than Moses is publicly admitting. He offers all sorts of compromise positions, seemingly designed to assure that the slaves will return after fulfilling their duties. Things proceed to the point that Pharaoh threatens Moses' life despite the plagues and signs. The people are finally freed, but once they have left Pharaoh and his councilors decide to resort to violence and slaughter: 5 And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us? 6 And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him: 7 And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them. 8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.(Exodus 14:5-8) We are not told why the Lord instructed Moses to deal with the Egyptians in the way that he did. It is significant that Moses did not take such an approach on his own; only a direct command motivates his less-than-forthright behavior. http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Why_would_Abraham_lie 1
Rivers Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 I decided to splurge and buy Planted as an E-Book on my Deseret Book app.It was cheaper than buying a tangible copy. But now that I've read through most of it, I am wishing that I had gotten the actual book because there is a lot of good stuff in here and I can't really lend it to other people. Its the kind of book I need right now and I can think of others to whom it would also benefit. It is always breath of fresh air to read things from people who can acknowledge the nuances and complexities of Mormonism while maintaining a faithful perspective. I just finished reading the chapter where he discusses importance of viewing everything through the lens of Christ and the atonement. Its a very helpful approach to take. I recommend this book. 2
BHodges Posted January 30, 2016 Author Posted January 30, 2016 On January 28, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Rivers said: I decided to splurge and buy Planted as an E-Book on my Deseret Book app.It was cheaper than buying a tangible copy. But now that I've read through most of it, I am wishing that I had gotten the actual book because there is a lot of good stuff in here and I can't really lend it to other people. Its the kind of book I need right now and I can think of others to whom it would also benefit. It is always breath of fresh air to read things from people who can acknowledge the nuances and complexities of Mormonism while maintaining a faithful perspective. I just finished reading the chapter where he discusses importance of viewing everything through the lens of Christ and the atonement. Its a very helpful approach to take. I recommend this book. Thanks so much for this response, Rivers. It really means a lot to hear that the book is helpful. I agree it's refreshing to see a book with candor. Was there anything you read that you hadn't heard about before? 1
Rivers Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 3 hours ago, BHodges said: Thanks so much for this response, Rivers. It really means a lot to hear that the book is helpful. I agree it's refreshing to see a book with candor. Was there anything you read that you hadn't heard about before? I didn't know much about Eugene England before reading Planted and enjoyed reading about his story. I liked how he brought a large group of black church members together and let them share their experiences. I finished the book. It was worth the ten dollars. 1
Peppermint Patty Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 Blair, I'm very thankful for this book. It was just what I needed at this time in my life. Please thank everyone at the Maxwell Institute who was involved with this project. 4
BHodges Posted February 1, 2016 Author Posted February 1, 2016 2 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said: Blair, I'm very thankful for this book. It was just what I needed at this time in my life. Please thank everyone at the Maxwell Institute who was involved with this project. I'll pass along your thanks, PP
Ginger Snaps Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) I just finished the book this morning. Overall I really enjoyed it. I thought Mason did a good job of sort of giving a voice to those who have doubts and concerns. He doesn't go into all the many issues that people have, but uses a few of them to illustrate points. He says "How we deal with doubt in the church today is one of the most pressing tests of our collective discipleship" (pg 19), and no doubt this is true. Throughout the book he gives several concrete examples of how we can make space for those who do doubt, as well as offering ways for those who doubt to "tether" themselves to the gospel. There is a lot of discussion about imperfection, grace, forgiveness, acceptance. In the chapter titled "Testimonies" he discusses how faith is a spectrum, and that people can hold both faith and doubt in their minds and hearts. I really appreciated his spelling this out so absolutely; I know it's true in my own life and my own faith journey, but I've very much experienced the Mormon attitude that faith and doubt are mutually exclusive and that if you have doubts or concerns about anything you must be sinning or failing somehow. This really is where discipleship, and even honesty come in to play. Do we sit silently when others express doubts or concerns and pretend we have none? Or do we speak up and say, "I've been through some of that too, and here is what worked for me"? He also has an extensive discourse on how to approach church history which I found especially enlightening and useful. I am not a historian; far from it, and I definitely had a few "lightbulb" moments while reading through and thinking of some of my own concerns with church history. I enjoyed his thoughts on how the church sort of binds us into fellowship with each other and as a result we end up associating with/serving people who we might not otherwise. The entire chapter "When Church is Hard" really spoke to me. I especially liked his discussion of a planet with gravity and orbit as a metaphor for the church. He does a great job of explaining how Mormonism really does have it's own gravity. He says, "Find a way to stay in the church as it orbits around the Son. For those who already feel their feet are plated on solid ground, my plea is also simple: Be the type of friend, family member, or fellow church member who provides the safe connection that we all so desperately need." All in all, a great book. I think any Bishop or Stake President could benefit from reading this book and applying some of its ideas as they tend to their own flocks. Edited February 9, 2016 by Ginger Snaps grammar 2
BHodges Posted February 9, 2016 Author Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the detailed review. I really liked how you pointed this out: Quote Do we sit silently when others express doubts or concerns and pretend we have none? Or do we speak up and say, "I've been through some of that too" It's sometimes much easier to let someone else be vulnerable, but I think our weaknesses are themselves strengths when they lead us to rely on God and serve each other. Edited February 9, 2016 by BHodges 2
Tacenda Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) Great podcast with the author! http://athoughtfulfaith.org/patrick-mason-planted-tackling-the-hard-questions/?wiziapp_back=cat-4&_=1455471206360 ETA: This is the first podcast done of the two. http://athoughtfulfaith.org/patrick-mason-planted-belief-and-belonging-in-an-age-of-doubt/?wiziapp_back=cat-4&_=1455471206362 Edited February 14, 2016 by Tacenda 2
BHodges Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 In the past few weeks the two main newspapers in Utah had good things to say about Planted. Does this signal the beginning of a Utah apocalypse? Utahns take note. Deseret News Salt Lake Tribune Has anyone else heard any buzz about it? 1
readstoomuch Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Just the buzz around here and a few podcasts. I finished it and found most of the time the book puts into words how I have felt. Excellent book. 2
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) I liked how it was displayed in Deseret Bookstore in Draper Utah. It wasn't sandwiched in between many books to where I'd have to search. It was in the aisle! Bought this book yesterday. If anyone wants to borrow it, I can send you the book! Hint, hint Jeanne, maybe that will make me read it faster! Edited February 21, 2016 by Tacenda 2
GingerRed Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Although my testimony is strong, I would love to get this book. I think it would help me help those who are struggling. I would love to have tips and suggestions of what to say to them. I have many inactive friends. I think every Bishop should be required to read this book. It sounds like it would give them really good insight 2
flameburns623 Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 I bought this. Along with The Crucible of Doubt by Givens. 1
Jeanne Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 (edited) On 2/20/2016 at 10:10 AM, Jeanne said: Just ordered it..can't wait!! I have been reading this..and as an ex-mormon, I feel for the first time that my feelings have been understood and validated. I believe EVERYONE inside and post mormon should read this book if for nothing else a bridge to better understanding and empathy. In my own mind, I realize now that doubts are normal..not anti..but yes, what we do with them and how we arrive at our decisions is not only personal and different, . but a common search for our own spirituality I have great love for the mormon people in my life and this book helped me realize that the hurt of differences works both ways. Thank you! Edited March 13, 2016 by Jeanne 2
Tacenda Posted May 11, 2016 Posted May 11, 2016 http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/05/premium-patrick-mason-planted/ Listening now, and in it Bill mentions giving some of these books to those who have doubting children. Which just so happened to me. I'm a VT'r now and the woman we visit is my former RS president whom I was in a presidency with. During a visit with her, my partner couldn't make it, she talked about her son that is going through a faith crisis. Maybe she felt comfortable telling me because by knowing me all these years she knew I struggled, but I never told her the real reasons why. So she brings this up about what her son is finding out about Joseph Smith. So later that day I gave her my book "Planted". I've yet to read the full book yet, just partially read it. But feel I already know what it's going to say. And that like Bro. Mason said, this book is really for those members who have doubting friends or family because they then can understand where their loved ones are coming from without withdrawing in shock or disappointment. And the great part is it being sold at Deseret Book. And like I mentioned in another post, when I bought the book it was front and center in the aisle at DB. 1
DBMormon Posted May 11, 2016 Posted May 11, 2016 I just interviewed Patrick last night. The episode is up but is only for Premium Members. SOOOOOOOOOOO Good. he takes any question and is authentic and blunt that the Church has issues that need to be overcome but never says anything that one could call unfaithful. Some highlights - Leaders who dismiss those who leave over doubt as taking the easy way out are likely speaking out of their own frustration and that for most who leave over doubt it is one of the hardest things they have done and we should not be dismissive of it. - Church must ASAP form a new theology around the role of a prophet - Men are privileged in the church and this needs addressed - Dissenters or "loyal opposition" need space to disagree and that a church that allows such shows more confidence and maturity. - Wards and Stakes need to works to provide safer space for people to ask tough questions and for members to disagree respectfully 2
hope_for_things Posted May 11, 2016 Posted May 11, 2016 36 minutes ago, DBMormon said: I just interviewed Patrick last night. The episode is up but is only for Premium Members. SOOOOOOOOOOO Good. he takes any question and is authentic and blunt that the Church has issues that need to be overcome but never says anything that one could call unfaithful. Some highlights - Leaders who dismiss those who leave over doubt as taking the easy way out are likely speaking out of their own frustration and that for most who leave over doubt it is one of the hardest things they have done and we should not be dismissive of it. - Church must ASAP form a new theology around the role of a prophet - Men are privileged in the church and this needs addressed - Dissenters or "loyal opposition" need space to disagree and that a church that allows such shows more confidence and maturity. - Wards and Stakes need to works to provide safer space for people to ask tough questions and for members to disagree respectfully Thanks, I'm looking forward to listening. Patrick's book is excellent. I've given 5 copies away to family and friends so far with good success. He is speaking to both the doubter and the orthodox member in a non threatening way and out of all the books that I've read, I think his is the most accessible so far for the traditional believer. I would like to hear more about recommendations for wards and stakes to provide safer spaces for members to openly ask difficult questions. I think local support is so important and there is a need for this support, but most leaders don't know how to provide this support effectively. Hopefully that will change in the future.
Jeanne Posted May 11, 2016 Posted May 11, 2016 On 1/21/2016 at 0:18 PM, Daniel2 said: I agree that "doubt is natural, and is a part of live, and that it's something most if not all will face." But in my experience, neither belief OR doubt is a matter of choice. One CAN choose to ACT as if one HAS faith (what is commonly called "exercising faith") or one CAN choose to ACT as if one DOESN'T have doubt. And in the acting, one may eventually come across enough experience or new information which causes faith or doubt to either increase or decrease (usually in an inverse relationship to one another). But inside one's heart and mind, I believe that "faith" or "doubt," themselves, are not a matter of making a choice to either have them or not have them. Wow..I read through this a couple of times and it is like your words are profound. You speak to me Daniel2! 1
Scott Lloyd Posted May 11, 2016 Posted May 11, 2016 1 hour ago, DBMormon said: - Dissenters or "loyal opposition" need space to disagree and that a church that allows such shows more confidence and maturity. Church leaders have repeatedly declared the concept of a "loyal opposition" to be inappropriate within the setting of the Church of Jesus Christ, most recently at the general conference of this past April: Quote Some of this opposition even comes from Church members. Some who use personal reasoning or wisdom to resist prophetic direction give themselves a label borrowed from elected bodies—“the loyal opposition.” However appropriate for a democracy, there is no warrant for this concept in the government of God’s kingdom, where questions are honored but opposition is not (see Matthew 26:24).
canard78 Posted May 11, 2016 Posted May 11, 2016 On 20 January 2016 at 8:09 PM, Scott Lloyd said: AnWell, if Fiona Givens said it, we'd darn well better sit up and take notice. Or, on the other hand, is this one more instance of "hero worship"? Praise to Fiona who... gave a fireside and made some points about hero worshipping... Dang it... doesn't scan...
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