consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? I would not. Another poster has suggested he would not. But I am interested in hearing what others think.
Zakuska Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? I would not. Another poster has suggested he would not. But I am interested in hearing what others think. In a non-nefarious way we already do this. And its built right into every program and several callings in the church. Examples: Home Teaching Visiting Teaching Ward Council Emergency Preparedness Coordinator Edited January 8, 2016 by Zakuska 2
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Sure. Why not. I'd do just about anything for a Church leader, particularly the one named Jesus. Not neglecting to return and report.
Popular Post bluebell Posted January 8, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 8, 2016 Maybe. It would depend. I have a friend in a neighboring stake who is neighbor's with her stake president. She was really struggling one day with her family (also in her ward) because they were going crazy with all the julie rowe stuff. They were buying survival equipment and supplies as fast a they could and were constantly harper on her and her husband about how they were failing. She also had member friends in the same stake that had sold their home and were living in someone's back yard (with 6 or 7 kids) in preparation for having to move to the tent cities in the spring. Her stake was blowing up with it. Her stake president was talking to her in her yard that day and asked her what was wrong. She told him and he helped her feel a lot better. Then he asked her for the names of the people who were doing very extreme things in regards to julie rowe because he said the stake needed to nip it in the bud and help the people to go back to a less paranoid state of functioning. She told him the names, and I don't think she did anything wrong. We are asked to look after each other in this church. If someone is going off of the rails in some way, I don't know that 'it's none of my business' is always the most Christian response, even if it is the easiest. 6
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: I'd do just about anything for a Church leader, particularly the one named Jesus. This is the kind of attitude I find deeply troubling.
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Julie Rowe? Does she live in Utah or something? Never heard of her. But she seems very persuasive.
Zakuska Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: Julie Rowe? Does she live in Utah or something? Never heard of her. But she seems very persuasive. Julie Rowe is a professional Mormon Prepper, http://mormonstories.org/julie-rowe-preppers/ She also wrote a book about an NDE. http://wellbehavedmormonwoman.blogspot.com/2015/09/church-warns-members-about-julie-rowes.html Edited January 8, 2016 by Zakuska
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: This is the kind of attitude I find deeply troubling. Then you haven't been properly brainwashed, I assume? 1
RevTestament Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 4 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? I would not. Another poster has suggested he would not. But I am interested in hearing what others think. For me I think it would depend on my assessment of what their concerns are. For instance it it is a "he" and the church is concerned that he may be molesting his family or abusing them, I probably would do it. I would also retain my right not to disclose what I found out. But when the welfare of other people may be directly involved, and my "spying" may help them out of their predicament, again yeah, I'm pretty sure I would do it. On the other hand if it was to disclose personal attitudes about business affiliations, political issues, or the church, I probably would not do it. If it was for the purpose to collect "dirt" on someone in order to excommunicate them, etc, I believe I most certainly would not, and I would hope the church would not undertake such activity. If someone doesn't want to disclose their sins to the church, I believe that will be between them and their Savior. The Church was not formed to be a "police state." That was the rather huge mistake of the Catholic Church. If someone is out to defame the Church or Christ, their sins will become readily apparent. The purpose of the Church is to feed the flock - not to weed out sinners.
bluebell Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 1 minute ago, Ahab said: Julie Rowe? Does she live in Utah or something? Never heard of her. But she seems very persuasive. She lives in the midwest, but wrote a couple of books about NDE's where she was shown the devastation that is to come before the second coming and apparently its suppose to happen very soon (a lot of her followers believed it would be this last september and i know some that are thinking it's this spring). Part of her teaching is that we are going to be living in church run tent cities so need to have everything ready for that eventually (since only those prepared will be allowed to go). She had quite the following in Utah prior to the church letting people know they did not support her views on the subject. I have no idea how popular she is now.
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 3 minutes ago, Zakuska said: Julie Rowe is a professional Mormon Prepper, http://mormonstories.org/julie-rowe-preppers/ She also wrote a book about an NDE. http://wellbehavedmormonwoman.blogspot.com/2015/09/church-warns-members-about-julie-rowes.html I clicked on one of your links and saw her picture and could tell immediately that I wouldn't sell my house and stuff just because of something she said. Apparently she was more persuasive in Utah.
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: She lives in the midwest, but wrote a couple of books about NDE's where she was shown the devastation that is to come before the second coming and apparently its suppose to happen very soon (a lot of her followers believed it would be this last september and i know some that are thinking it's this spring). Part of her teaching is that we are going to be living in church run tent cities so need to have everything ready for that eventually (since only those prepared will be allowed to go). She had quite the following in Utah prior to the church letting people know they did not support her views on the subject. I have no idea how popular she is now. I can get a tent without selling my house, if I ever need a tent. People who need to sell their house to be able to buy a tent must be very poor people.
bluebell Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: I can get a tent without selling my house, if I ever need a tent. People who need to sell their house to be able to buy a tent must be very poor people. Getting ready to live for years in the mountains, as completely self sustained as possible, in a tent, is pretty expensive, i'm sure. I'm guessing they thought it would be easier to prepare for that without spending $1200+ a month on a mortgage. Plus, if you think you are going to be living in a tent pretty soon, there's no reason not to start practicing before the big event to make sure you've got everything covered. That seems to be their thinking.
RevTestament Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 27 minutes ago, Ahab said: Sure. Why not. I'd do just about anything for a Church leader, particularly the one named Jesus. Not neglecting to return and report. Jesus obviously doesn't need anyone to spy for Him. And if anything were going to destroy His church, I think he would give appropriate warning to leaders.
Bob Crockett Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 45 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? I would not. Another poster has suggested he would not. But I am interested in hearing what others think. Why do you even ask the question. You've said many times on public boards that you are no longer a believer, you don't attend, and you left because of the way you were released from your last calling. Nobody will ever ask you to spy on anybody. 2
Zakuska Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 21 minutes ago, Ahab said: I can get a tent without selling my house, if I ever need a tent. People who need to sell their house to be able to buy a tent must be very poor people. More about her...
Guest Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 44 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? I would not. Another poster has suggested he would not. But I am interested in hearing what others think. Never, a former Bishop and former friend had Ward members who had only asked when or if we would finish their house. They have a son who is dying (and already had lost another due to the same genetic condition). The Ward had began and a lot of money collected...when the Bishop who started most of the work, asked me to tell him what they had said, or to try and find out...my reply was, never ask me that again. After that we spoke less and less. So my best friend who was his first counselor, asked why he was so angry...I knew I was on the spy list.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 43 minutes ago, consiglieri said: .................................................................... If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? .................................................................... In very cohesive religious groups, such as the Amish and Hutterite Brethren, members do look out for each other, and people tend to know each other's private business. At the opposite side of the scale we have the anomie of the big city with lots of people but no truly cohesive qualities (See David Riesman, Nathan Glazer, and Reuel Denney, The Lonely Crowd). Surely there are limits to the sort of prying and loss of personal privacy which the most cohesive groups engender. At the same time, what is the common good for a Mormon community which has Home Teachers and Visiting Teachers assigned to everyone in a ward or branch? If there are serious needs among those assigned families, are those "Teachers" merely ratting out their neighbors when reporting back on those needs? Are they finally no better than the East German Stasi? Is it spying only when the request comes from above? Or is it merely caring when the information flows from below? Should there be a strict demarcation, regardless of the torrent of rumors which may be rampant in a ward or branch? 1
Thinking Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) I think there is a difference between spying and informing. I also think that the need to inform would be determined by the level of responsibility. While nobody's perfect, if I knew that a bishop had been unfaithful to his wife, I think that would be something that the stake president should know. Edited January 8, 2016 by Thinking formatting
Raingirl Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 15 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: Why do you even ask the question. You've said many times on public boards that you are no longer a believer, you don't attend, and you left because of the way you were released from your last calling. Nobody will ever ask you to spy on anybody. He asks the question for the same reason that he starts any threads....to try to make the church look bad and then feign innocence. As with most critics, he's too cheap or too lazy to start his own blog or website so tries to take advantage of established forums to try to drum up more followers. Most of us are smarter than that. 1
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: Getting ready to live for years in the mountains, as completely self sustained as possible, in a tent, is pretty expensive, i'm sure. I'm guessing they thought it would be easier to prepare for that without spending $1200+ a month on a mortgage. Plus, if you think you are going to be living in a tent pretty soon, there's no reason not to start practicing before the big event to make sure you've got everything covered. That seems to be their thinking. Sounds like we may need a few Church leaders to assign some people to go spy out the costs for a family to set up a camp in the woods. I know from experience that things CAN get spendy but they don't need to be. And for a self-sustaining camp you'd want to avoid all things gas or propane and even electrical unless you could generate your own solar energy. Personally I'd rather stay as close to my house and just have a shotgun for any varments that come after me. We have our own well for water as well as rivers nearby with salmon and lots of woods around for camp fires and plenty of land for gardens, etc. Pretty much self-sustainable already, at least compared to most city folks.
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Then you haven't been properly brainwashed, I assume? I was for years, but I worked my way out of it.
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said: Why do you even ask the question. You've said many times on public boards that you are no longer a believer, you don't attend, and you left because of the way you were released from your last calling. Nobody will ever ask you to spy on anybody. And you continue to lie about me even when corrected numerous times. Is this something pathological with you, Bob?
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? I would not. Another poster has suggested he would not. But I am interested in hearing what others think. Define spying. Also, do I get a spy drone?
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Jesus obviously doesn't need anyone to spy for Him. And if anything were going to destroy His church, I think he would give appropriate warning to leaders. Jesua assigns people to spy for him, to help him take care of Church members and nonmembers as well. His goal is to help all of us to become as self-sufficient as possible so that we're not always expecting him to do everything for us, with all of us helping each other.
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