consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Pa Pa said: Never, a former Bishop and former friend had Ward members who had only asked when or if we would finish their house. They have a son who is dying (and already had lost another due to the same genetic condition). The Ward had began and a lot of money collected...when the Bishop who started most of the work, asked me to tell him what they had said, or to try and find out...my reply was, never ask me that again. After that we spoke less and less. So my best friend who was his first counselor, asked why he was so angry...I knew I was on the spy list. My hat is off to you, Pa Pa.
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 55 minutes ago, Raingirl said: He asks the question for the same reason that he starts any threads....to try to make the church look bad and then feign innocence. As with most critics, he's too cheap or too lazy to start his own blog or website so tries to take advantage of established forums to try to drum up more followers. Most of us are smarter than that. You are very smart, Raingirl. Very smart, indeed.
JLHPROF Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? I would not. Another poster has suggested he would not. But I am interested in hearing what others think. You have a great talent for phrasing things in the worst possible light. No. I would not "spy" on a member on behalf of the Church. But there are also related scriptural and gospel principles where this is concerned that should not be ignored either. Just remember who it was said to God "Am I my brother's keeper?" 2
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Define spying. Also, do I get a spy drone? spy [spī] NOUN a person who secretly collects and reports information on the activities, movements, and plans of an enemy or competitor. synonyms: secret agent · intelligence agent · double agent · [more] undercover agent · counterspy · mole · sleeper · plant · scout · snooper · intelligencer a person who keeps watch on others secretly: "a spy camera" VERB work for a government or other organization by secretly collecting information about enemies or competitors: "he agreed to spy for the West"synonyms: be a spy · gather intelligence · [more] work for the secret service · snoop · espionage · intelligence gathering · surveillance · infiltration · undercover work · cloak-and-dagger activities (spy on) observe (someone) furtively: "the couple were spied on by reporters"synonyms: observe furtively · [more] keep under surveillance/observation · surveil · watch · keep a watch on · keep an eye on discern or make out, especially by careful observation: "he could spy a figure in the distance"synonyms: notice · observe · see · spot · sight · catch sight of · [more] glimpse · make out · discern · detect · clap/lay/set eyes on · espy · behold · descry (spy something out) collect information about something to use in deciding how to act: "he would go and spy out the land" ORIGIN Middle English: shortening of Old French espie ‘espying,’ espier ‘espy,’ of Germanic origin, from an Indo-European root shared by Latin specere ‘behold, look.’ RELATED FORMS spy(noun) spies(plural noun) spy(verb) spies(third person present) spied(past tense) spied(past participle) spying(present participle) Translate spy to Choose languageArabicBulgarianCatalanChinese SimplifiedChinese TraditionalCzechDanishDutchEnglishEstonianFinnishFrenchGermanGreekHebrewHindiHungarianIndonesianItalianJapaneseKoreanLatvianLithuanianMalayMalteseNorwegianPersianPolishPortugueseRomanianRussianSlovakSlovenianSpanishSwedishThaiTurkishUkrainianUrduVietnameseWelsh No translation found. Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 7 minutes ago, Ahab said: Jesua assigns people to spy for him, to help him take care of Church members and nonmembers as well. His goal is to help all of us to become as self-sufficient as possible so that we're not always expecting him to do everything for us, with all of us helping each other. Where on earth do you think Jesus assigns people to spy for him? Why on earth would Jesus need anybody to spy for him?
Zakuska Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) This thread reminds me of the Harlot Rahab... and the 2 Israeli spys Joshua sent to Jericho. Of course the people of Jericho werent ward members or neighbors. Edited January 8, 2016 by Zakuska
Popular Post Bob Crockett Posted January 8, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) Consig: I'm sorry to bring up again what you've posted about the circumstances of your disaffection from the church, and your unhappy release from a high-profile calling in your ward, but you went on for weeks about it on Shade's board and now you've written over there that you've not been to church in months. I don't really care about the reasons for your disaffection other than to hope that you can overcome it. But my point is that if you are not a believer and not attending, then why care about being asked to spy on people? Would you poke fun at a devout Jew for eating a cheeseburger? What's the point? Do you know personally of a single person ever asked to spy on another member of the church, or than to act in a pastoral manner as an elder's quorum might and a home teacher might? I've not, and I've had lots of callings. Perhaps there have been times when that has been done, but the Church just doesn't operate that way. Every single disciplinary counsel I''ve been on relies on confessions, not adverse witnesses. Sure, it is theoretically possible to build a case over a denial, but I've never experienced one. In every case, the member comes in defiant and admitting guilt, or repentant and admitting guilt, or having previously confessed and refusing to show. My only experience with apostasy is that the member seals his fate with written statements to his stake president and then refuses to show, or shows up to argue his point. Is that really spying? There's been members engaged in adulterous affairs because their spouses confide in members of the ward about it, but I am not aware of the priesthood ever sending spies to verify the claim. How would they? How would a plumber know how to investigate somebody? Edited January 8, 2016 by Bob Crockett 5
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Just remember who it was said to God "Am I my brother's keeper?" Not, "Am I my brother's ratfink?"
Ahab Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 All those who know consiglieri know that he intentionally uses the most inflammatory word possible to convey a negative tone about something positive. When he's talking about spying he's talking about going out to see somebody and then to return and report. It's a good thing that only sounds bad to those who want to think it is bad. Like brainwashing. A good thing to have happen when we get baptized.
Zakuska Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Just now, consiglieri said: Not, "Am I my brother's ratfink?" Adam was Eves "ratfink".
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, Zakuska said: This thread reminds me of the Harlot Rahab... and the 2 Israeli spys Joshua sent to Jericho. Of course the people of Jericho werent ward members or neighbors. And that is the key, isn't it, Zak? One typically spies on enemies or competitors. It's in the definition I just gave.
JLHPROF Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Just now, consiglieri said: Not, "Am I my brother's ratfink?" D&C 20:54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking; There are many principles outlined in scripture where it IS our calling to watch each other and protect the membership. But that is not the same as "finking". However, if a member poses a danger to the membership we have a responsibility to recognize it. As I said, you have a knack for phrasing things in the most negative light. You look at zebras and see defective horses.
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 1 minute ago, Ahab said: All those who know consiglieri know that he intentionally uses the most inflammatory word possible to convey a negative tone about something positive. When he's talking about spying he's talking about going out to see somebody and then to return and report. It's a good thing that only sounds bad to those who want to think it is bad. Like brainwashing. A good thing to have happen when we get baptized. So brainwashing is a good thing in your opinion? I must be the only one who thinks that sounds bad.
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 6 minutes ago, consiglieri said: spy [spī] NOUN a person who secretly collects and reports information on the activities, movements, and plans of an enemy or competitor. synonyms: secret agent · intelligence agent · double agent · [more] undercover agent · counterspy · mole · sleeper · plant · scout · snooper · intelligencer a person who keeps watch on others secretly: "a spy camera" VERB work for a government or other organization by secretly collecting information about enemies or competitors: "he agreed to spy for the West"synonyms: be a spy · gather intelligence · [more] work for the secret service · snoop · espionage · intelligence gathering · surveillance · infiltration · undercover work · cloak-and-dagger activities (spy on) observe (someone) furtively: "the couple were spied on by reporters"synonyms: observe furtively · [more] keep under surveillance/observation · surveil · watch · keep a watch on · keep an eye on discern or make out, especially by careful observation: "he could spy a figure in the distance"synonyms: notice · observe · see · spot · sight · catch sight of · [more] glimpse · make out · discern · detect · clap/lay/set eyes on · espy · behold · descry (spy something out) collect information about something to use in deciding how to act: "he would go and spy out the land" ORIGIN Middle English: shortening of Old French espie ‘espying,’ espier ‘espy,’ of Germanic origin, from an Indo-European root shared by Latin specere ‘behold, look.’ RELATED FORMS spy(noun) spies(plural noun) spy(verb) spies(third person present) spied(past tense) spied(past participle) spying(present participle) Translate spy to Choose languageArabicBulgarianCatalanChinese SimplifiedChinese TraditionalCzechDanishDutchEnglishEstonianFinnishFrenchGermanGreekHebrewHindiHungarianIndonesianItalianJapaneseKoreanLatvianLithuanianMalayMalteseNorwegianPersianPolishPortugueseRomanianRussianSlovakSlovenianSpanishSwedishThaiTurkishUkrainianUrduVietnameseWelsh No translation found. Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press I don't have any enemies or competitors so that definition is out. I don't secretly watch people. I am too flamboyant. I guess I am not qualified to spy for God.
JLHPROF Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: So brainwashing is a good thing in your opinion? I must be the only one who thinks that sounds bad. There are a good many people who need their brains washed of all the junk floating through them. (Depending on what you consider junk of course).
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 4 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: And you have recently said that you haven't been back to church since. That is the lie. I have never said that, and it is not true. Please stop lying, Bob.
Calm Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? You apparently missed my post where I said "no" as well or perhaps I was assuming your comment was narrower than it was as you didn't phrase the question the same way. No, I wouldn't "spy" on anyone unless I believed there was a serious threat of physical harm to others from them. I don't think would even spy on someone who was threatening suicide unless to prevent a child from being the one who discovered the body. Privacy is paramount in my world. OTOH, I don't have a probelm using google to view people's public statements, do you, consig? And if it isn't a problem for you to view it, why would you have a problem with someone else viewing it? 1
ERayR Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? I would not. Another poster has suggested he would not. But I am interested in hearing what others think. How else is the Church going to gain dictatorial control and take over the world. You just got to do it . Next stupid question. 1
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Where on earth do you think Jesus assigns people to spy for him? Why on earth would Jesus need anybody to spy for him? There were the spies at Jericho, the spies of the Promised Land under Moses who were very blessed, the Nephite army regularly used spies, and Brigham Young used some in the Utah War. Spying is a noble profession that God endorses. Better then lawyers at least. 1 minute ago, ERayR said: How else is the Church going to gain dictatorial control and take over the world. You just got to do it . Next stupid question. And this of course. The day of reckoning approaches.
bluebell Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 7 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Where on earth do you think Jesus assigns people to spy for him? Why on earth would Jesus need anybody to spy for him? Whatever someone believes about 'spying' on someone else, I don't understand this argument. After all, Jesus doesn't need us to take care of the poor and widows either, but He still asks us to do that. Whether or not Jesus can do something Himself seems to be completely irrelevant in the equation of figuring out what He will or will not ask of us.
Calm Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Zakuska said: Julie Rowe is a professional Mormon Prepper, http://mormonstories.org/julie-rowe-preppers/ She also wrote a book about an NDE. http://wellbehavedmormonwoman.blogspot.com/2015/09/church-warns-members-about-julie-rowes.html Zak, how could you! You just spied on Julie Rowe at the request of someone else! At least apparently by consig's standards as this is what he is bemoaning about. Edited January 8, 2016 by Calm 1
Calm Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Thinking said: I think there is a difference between spying and informing. I also think that the need to inform would be determined by the level of responsibility. While nobody's perfect, if I knew that a bishop had been unfaithful to his wife, I think that would be something that the stake president should know. My choice would be to go to the bishop and let him know he needed to go talk to the stake president about it. I might, just might, speak to the wife if he said nothing....actually now that I think of it more, I would speak to the wife. There are too many diseases a man can come home with to an unsuspecting wife. That is putting her in physical danger. Edited January 8, 2016 by Calm 1
ERayR Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Another thread has raised the issue I hope to explore here. If you were asked by a Church leader to spy on your neighbor because she is a member about whom the Church has concerns and wants to gather information, would you do it? I would not. Another poster has suggested he would not. But I am interested in hearing what others think. If you mean Do I do my home teaching the answer is yes.
consiglieri Posted January 8, 2016 Author Posted January 8, 2016 13 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: I don't really care about the reasons for your disaffection other than to hope that you can overcome it. Then why do you bring it up every chance you get? And why do you lie about it? The reason you keep bringing this lie up on this board is not because you hope I can overcome it, but to demean me. It is pathological, isn't it, Bob?
bluebell Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 7 minutes ago, consiglieri said: And that is the key, isn't it, Zak? One typically spies on enemies or competitors. It's in the definition I just gave. It seems to cut both ways. One doesn't usually mind when someone is getting information about someone or an organization they don't like. But if someone else might try to get information on them, that's a horse of a different color. If someone uses inside sources to discover something about the church that the church hasn't published publicly, like, say, information about changes to a policy in a church handbook of instruction for example, that is laudable, or at the very least, a neutral act. If the church uses inside sources to discover something about a person that they might not want published publicly, that's reprehensible. 4
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