Teancum Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 On 1/7/2016 at 1:01 PM, smac97 said: Waiting for the other shoe to drop . . . -Smac Such a cynic you are. Why cant someone have had a special experience but still understand there are other major issues and flaws in the organization that claims to the One True and Living Church? Spiritual experiences are not limited to those who buy into the LDS dogma hook, line and sinker. Nor do you or they have one up on access to such things.
why me Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) On 1/7/2016 at 0:01 AM, consiglieri said: But then, the Spirit pulled a number on me while listening to Paul Dunn talks on cassette. It is true that Dunn embellished his talks but what he said about the gospel probably came from his heart and testmony. Maybe the spirit was testifying to that. He just got caught up in his own story. Such is human life. Edited January 9, 2016 by why me 1
Teancum Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 On 1/7/2016 at 0:46 PM, consiglieri said: One of the most powerful spiritual experiences in my life happened while listening to Elder McConkie bear his final testimony in April 1985 General Conference. I was sitting in the stake center in Austin, Texas, watching his giant-size projected image on the screen at the front of the chapel. As Elder McConkie concluded his talk with his testimony, I felt the Holy Spirit swoop down from the screen and over me like a rushing, mighty wind. I have never experienced the Holy Ghost in exactly the same way before or since. It was something I will never forget. All the Best! --Consiglieri My experience was similar to yours. Growing up as a young teen to young man when McConkie was at his peak I actually loved the man. So many toss him under the bus now. But he was Mormon through and through and did not mince words. The Mormonism I learned from him... and I read Mormon Doctrine and his three volume NY commentary before I was 20 years old, is not the Mormonism of correlation nor of the apologists. I think I prefer his no nonsense approach to so much of the mealy mouthed stuff we get from those who make Mormonism into something of their own image as well as the pabulum from the over correlated manuals. And I did love his final testimony that was all more poignant given the fact that he knew he was a man soon to face death which came shortly after that.
Teancum Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 On 1/7/2016 at 5:02 PM, smac97 said: Ah! There's the other shoe! -Smac Ahhhh there is the cynical comment with no substantive response. I too felt the "spirit" listening to Paul Dunn talks that ended up being lies. Go figure that one councilor.,... I you can. 1
Teancum Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 On 1/8/2016 at 8:28 PM, JAHS said: I may have shared this before but here's a little background story about his final talk: The "I Believe in Christ Legacy" by Jane P. Merrill (Sister Merrill attends the same ward as Amelia McConkie, the widow of Elder Bruce R. McConkie who passed away in 1985.] Recently in our Fast and Testimony meeting, we had the opportunity to hear Sister Amelia McConkie bear her testimony. As she began to speak, I felt strongly impressed to take notes, recognizing that it was a rare opportunity to hear a first hand account of Elder Bruce R. McConkie's last few weeks. After church I wrote up the account and then took it to Sister McConkie to make sure it was correct, and to get her approval. Sister McConkie's story: "In Relief Society today our closing song was 'I Believe in Christ.' Then, as we began our Fast and Testimony meeting, our opening song was 'I Believe in Christ.' This co-incidence made me think that perhaps it's time I share with you how we got this hymn. "Some 15 years ago, my husband Bruce R. McConkie was very ill. The doctor told us he had two months to live, at the most. However, Bruce felt he still had some things he wanted to do. The Brethren gave him a blessing and his family gathered to share their faith and prayers. He lived an additional fourteen months, although he was very ill much of that time. He never thought he wasn't going to get better. He told me time and time again that this was the Lord's test for him, and that he had enough faith in and of himself to be healed. "Early in February, on an overcast day much like today, I decided to make a pie to cheer him up, as he loved pie. While I was doing this he lay on the floor in our bedroom, which he often did. He had a pencil and paper in hand and was writing. Then he came into the kitchen where I was working and said, 'Do you want to hear what I'm going to talk about in Conference?' "The pie was almost finished and I wanted to get it in the oven, but I soon realized that you don't make pies while he's talking like this. So I stopped and sat down to listen. He read to me his talk, and I said, 'It's the most beautiful thing you've ever written, but how will you ever do it?' He was so ill and so weak. 'I don't know,' he answered, 'but I will.' "His doctor was so worried. 'You've got a dying man on your hands; you must not let him speak at conference. If he tries, he will collapse on nationwide television.' But I couldn't try to stop him. He was determined to do it and nothing could have stopped him. Our son said, 'I don't think there's anything Dad wanted to do more than preach that last sermon at Conference.' So our children fasted together, asking that their father would have the physical and emotional strength to fulfill his wish. "During the Saturday morning session of April 1985 General Conference, a thin Bruce R. McConkie took his place at the pulpit and despite his weakened condition, he bore majestic testimony to the truths so integral to his life and mission. He testified, 'I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears. But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God's Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way.' (Excerpted from his Conference address) "The following Sunday Elder Packer visited him at home and gave him a blessing in which he told Bruce he should 'quit resisting the will of the Lord.' We both knew what he meant. At the conclusion, with tears running down his face, Bruce looked at me as I stood at the foot of the bed, and said, 'Amelia, do you know what he just did?' 'Yes,' I answered, 'he has sealed you unto death.' "That was so hard on Bruce. He wanted so much to live. But as I showed Elder Packer out, Bruce got up, folded the bedspread as he always did at night, got ready for bed, and got under the covers. Always before he would insist that I make the bed and he would lay on top of it, fully dressed. But this was his way of saying to the Lord, 'I am bowing to your will.' He passed away a short time later." What a great blessing to have the beautiful hymn, "I Believe In Christ", taken from his testimony. As recorded and written by Jane P. Merrill September 6, 1998 Thank you for sharing that. It was beautiful and moved me to tears. 1
Guest Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 On January 7, 2016 at 0:46 PM, consiglieri said: One of the most powerful spiritual experiences in my life happened while listening to Elder McConkie bear his final testimony in April 1985 General Conference. I was sitting in the stake center in Austin, Texas, watching his giant-size projected image on the screen at the front of the chapel. As Elder McConkie concluded his talk with his testimony, I felt the Holy Spirit swoop down from the screen and over me like a rushing, mighty wind. I have never experienced the Holy Ghost in exactly the same way before or since. It was something I will never forget. All the Best! --Consiglieri It was the most powerful sermon I ever heard and I had the same experience. So much so that I committed half of it to memory and used the his final words at the funerals of both my parents. While living my Mother who was not a member, also thought it was one of the best sermons she had heard...it brought tears to her eyes. Over the years I have quoted his closing remarks in many talks I have given. Thanks for reminding me of that day and experience.
CA Steve Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, why me said: It is true that Dunn embellished his talks but what he said about the gospel probably came from his heart and testmony. Maybe the spirit was testifying to that. He just got caught up in his own story. Such is human life. Elder LeGrand Richards told great stories. I heard where he was asked, after such a story, if the story was true. With a twinkle in his eye (maybe even a wink) he replied, "I don't know, but it ought to be." Obviously people can feel the spirit regardless of whether or not the story is "true". Elder Dunn crossed a line, in my opinion, because while many of his stories may have illustrated gospel principals, they also led people to believe he had accomplished things he never did. I guess the question to consider is if the spirit testifies to partial truths? If the answer is yes, isn't it also testifying to those parts which are false, and if not how is one to distinguish? Clearly in the case of Elder Dunn, many of us thought the spirit was confirming all of what he said.
CV75 Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 31 minutes ago, Teancum said: Such a cynic you are. Why cant someone have had a special experience but still understand there are other major issues and flaws in the organization that claims to the One True and Living Church? Spiritual experiences are not limited to those who buy into the LDS dogma hook, line and sinker. Nor do you or they have one up on access to such things. He can, but by definition only according to his understanding. This is why it is important to understand your understanding and spiritually experience your spiritual experience. Recognize that your understanding is fallible while your spiritual experience is real. Experience how the Spirit is real and perfect, and that your understanding is faulty. But when weighing the understanding with spiritual experience, it is good to see (that is, to both understand and to spiritually experience) that these can only be reconciled by covenant with the Lord since the superior Source of spiritual experience must be allowed to inform and enable the human understanding. In this way, he will not set perceived flaws and issues in the “only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which [the Lord is] well pleased…” above real spiritual experience with the same organization. Everyone has the light of Christ and thus can enjoy spiritual experiences on any number of subjects.
smac97 Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 36 minutes ago, Teancum said: Such a cynic you are. Why cant someone have had a special experience but still understand there are other major issues and flaws in the organization that claims to the One True and Living Church? Spiritual experiences are not limited to those who buy into the LDS dogma hook, line and sinker. Nor do you or they have one up on access to such things. I suppose that's possible. But in the case at hand, I have observed only contempt, ridicule, hatred, etc. against my faith, so I expected the other shoe to drop. And . . . it did. Thanks, -Smac 2
Teancum Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, smac97 said: I suppose that's possible. But in the case at hand, I have observed only contempt, ridicule, hatred, etc. against my faith, so I expected the other shoe to drop. And . . . it did. Thanks, -Smac Of did it drop? How so? When I was a missionary my MP had a cassette tape of the month club. Many of the tapes we go were Paul Dunn tapes. They motivated me. The fired me up. I thought then I was feeling the spirit. The stories ended up being blatant lies. So how do you reconcile that one councilor?
smac97 Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, Teancum said: Of did it drop? How so? When I was a missionary my MP had a cassette tape of the month club. Many of the tapes we go were Paul Dunn tapes. They motivated me. The fired me up. I thought then I was feeling the spirit. The stories ended up being blatant lies. So how do you reconcile that one councilor? If a good faith discussion were possible, I'd provide a substantive response. But there isn't, so I won't. And it's "counselor." Thanks, -Smac
Teancum Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 37 minutes ago, smac97 said: I suppose that's possible. But in the case at hand, I have observed only contempt, ridicule, hatred, etc. against my faith, so I expected the other shoe to drop. And . . . it did. Thanks, -Smac Hatred and contempt? You do excel at hyperbole,. And why is your faith off limits for challenges. You often seem to bristle when anyone challenges anything you seem to clam testimony of. Is there some special thing out there that your faith cannot be scrutinized or challenged?
Bobbieaware Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) On January 7, 2016 at 2:22 PM, consiglieri said: Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes. it's kind of spooky, but the instant I read your rather cryptic post I thought of the following passages of scripture, especially verse 9. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure theee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, MY NAME IS LEGION: FOR WE AFE MANY. (Mark 5) Edited January 9, 2016 by Bobbieaware 3
Teancum Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 40 minutes ago, smac97 said: If a good faith discussion were possible, I'd provide a substantive response. But there isn't, so I won't. And it's "counselor." Thanks, -Smac Ok counselor.....you inhibit good faith discussions as much if nor more than you think others do. Carry on in your bubble.
smac97 Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Teancum said: Hatred and contempt? You do excel at hyperbole,. And why is your faith off limits for challenges. You often seem to bristle when anyone challenges anything you seem to clam testimony of. Is there some special thing out there that your faith cannot be scrutinized or challenged? My faith is not "off limits for challenges." That's an absurd statement. If I could not cope with such "challenges" I would not have been on this board for 11+ years. I speak of contempt, ridicule, and yes, hatred. Reasoned, principled disagreement with my faith is fine. I welcome such scrutiny. Contempt and ridicule, on the other hand, are not only not in harmony with having good faith discussions about Mormonism, they hinder any such efforts. And if someone exhibits nigh-unto-unending contempt and ridicule toward the LDS faith, and does so on a message board geared toward and principally populated by adherents of that faith, then the "h" word seems to become appropriate. If I went to a message board populated principally by Jews, or by Muslims, or by homosexuals, or by Trekkies, and if the bulk of my posts, by calculation and design, contained demonstrably apparent contempt and ridicule of Jews/Judaism, Muslims/Islam, homosexuals, or Star Trek, then I would understand why a Jew / Muslim / homosexual / Trekkie might take exception to such things. In closing, I scoff and declare "pshaw" to your suggestion that I can't cope with people challenging my faith. I am content to let my posting history bear record of my ability to interact with people who, in good faith and with grace and decorum and good manners, disagree with my religious beliefs (as a general rule, that is - there have been times where I have let my temper/emotions get the better of me, and there have been more than one public apology from me as a result). In the present case, however, these things are lacking. Thanks, -Smac Edited January 9, 2016 by smac97 3
smac97 Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 2 hours ago, Teancum said: Ok counselor.....you inhibit good faith discussions as much if nor more than you think others do. Carry on in your bubble. Well, I will disagree with you there. I really enjoy good faith discussions about my faith. I have had many such discussions on this board. If you have something substantive to say about what I believe, and if you express it with some measure of reason, good faith, and manners, I will make every effort to engage in meaningful discourse. Thanks, -Smac 1
Guest Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 4 hours ago, Teancum said: Such a cynic you are. Why cant someone have had a special experience but still understand there are other major issues and flaws in the organization that claims to the One True and Living Church? Spiritual experiences are not limited to those who buy into the LDS dogma hook, line and sinker. Nor do you or they have one up on access to such things. If I may, every faith can and do have flaws, because they are interpreted by flawed individuals. But I do not believe that Elder McConkie could have given a sermon that left so many with a "Spiritual Experience" with such force in a faith that is as misguided as so many define. I was so moved and so filled with the Spirit (via that sermon) that (to put it in Nephi's words) "it was as the consuming of my flesh". My Mother wanted to take it to the Church I grew up in and have them hear it. I think that the flas many see, are the flaws in our ability to understand. Note...there are flaws to be sure as Joseph himself noting his own flaws. But I am converted to this faith, and believe it to be the truest faith of all others. If I am wrong or to be damned for it, so be it. I love our leaders, past and present and maybe that is the flaw others see in me.
why me Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 3 hours ago, Teancum said: Of did it drop? How so? When I was a missionary my MP had a cassette tape of the month club. Many of the tapes we go were Paul Dunn tapes. They motivated me. The fired me up. I thought then I was feeling the spirit. The stories ended up being blatant lies. I think that 'bllantant lies' is a lttle strong. But here is what I think: I remember him very well. His stories embellished his gospel message. But his gospel message was spot on. Were these stories lies? Maybe. But the message was a good one and the spirit would testify of it. 1
Popular Post smac97 Posted January 10, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 10, 2016 And let us not forget the Elder Dunn specifically and publicly apologized for his embellishments / fabrications. But I suppose even that is not enough for certain folks, as here they are, maligning the reputation of a dead man for a few mistakes he made and apologized for. That's rather pathetic. 5
Tacenda Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 32 minutes ago, smac97 said: And let us not forget the Elder Dunn specifically and publicly apologized for his embellishments / fabrications. But I suppose even that is not enough for certain folks, as here they are, maligning the reputation of a dead man for a few mistakes he made and apologized for. That's rather pathetic. Is there a written apology somewhere? I've never heard nor read one.
Okrahomer Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 18 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Is there a written apology somewhere? I've never heard nor read one. From the Deseret News:. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/190407/ELDER-DUNN-OFFERS-APOLOGY-FOR-ERRORS-ADMITS-CENSURE.html?pg=all
Teancum Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, smac97 said: And let us not forget the Elder Dunn specifically and publicly apologized for his embellishments / fabrications. But I suppose even that is not enough for certain folks, as here they are, maligning the reputation of a dead man for a few mistakes he made and apologized for. That's rather pathetic. Who maligned Elder Dunn? My only comments are that when as a missionary I felt what I thought was the spirit when he told stories that were not true. Thus a reason to question the validity of using feelings to confirm truth. I see nobody maligning Elder Dunn. Just commenting on what happened. Edited January 10, 2016 by Teancum
Avatar4321 Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 31 minutes ago, Teancum said: Who maligned Elder Dunn? My only comments are that when as a missionary I felt what I thought was the spirit when he told stories that were not true. Thus a reason to question the validity of using feelings to confirm truth. I see nobody maligning Elder Dunn. Just commenting on what happened. Is anyone equating feeling the spirit to knowing truth? The voice of the Lord does coming with feelings. But He also speaks to us.
Teancum Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: Is anyone equating feeling the spirit to knowing truth? The voice of the Lord does coming with feelings. But He also speaks to us. The LDS leaders and scriptures teach it comes as feelings, burning in the bosom, etc.
Tacenda Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: Is anyone equating feeling the spirit to knowing truth? The voice of the Lord does coming with feelings. But He also speaks to us. Nearly every Primary leader I've listened to since a child and as a Primary Worker. Not to mention a zillion others like missionaries and leaders from the top down, equate our feeling the HG, as telling the truth.
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