rockpond Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 We are Saviors and Lords. Obadiah 1:21Saviors shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the LORD's. “But how are they to become saviors on Mount Zion? By building their temples, erecting their baptismal fonts, and going forth and receiving all the ordinances, baptisms, confirmations, washings, anointings, ordinations and sealing powers upon their heads, in behalf of all their progenitors who are dead, and redeem them that they may come forth in the first resurrection and be exalted to thrones of glory with them; and herein is the chain that binds the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, which fulfills the mission of Elijah. …” (p. 473) -Joseph Smith Doesn't change the point I was making.
Tsuzuki Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 Just pretend it's a different person with the same name, because for us, it is Joseph re-wrote the bible, he didn't "translate" it in any conventional sense.The tetragrammaton isn't a person. You're thinking of Adam Kadmon.
MiserereNobis Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 Yes, I agree completely. I was trying to remind MiserereNobis that the Catholic church of Joseph Smith's day was teaching that "we inherited Adams Guilt" and not just a "sinful nature", and thus that is why JS gave us the 2nd AOF.It seems like they must have abanded that portion of "original sin" doctrine. But then why are infants still Baptized in the RCC? The whole reason they baptize infants is to get rid of the "Guilt inherited from Adam". No, the Catholic Church still teaches original sin. I was just trying to avoid the negative connotations that arise from that term for LDS folk and point to the more important aspects of what it means. Adam's guilt AND sinful nature. The two are linked. Because of Adam, we are guilty and broken. I imagine we can agree on the sinful nature part...?
janderich Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 You don't need Christ to have the power of God and seeds of Godhood within you.In this fallen world the power of God comes through Christ and in no other way. He is the mediator between God and man. Without him we would lose the light and power we have and finally be destroyed. I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (D&C 93:2) 1
Tsuzuki Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) In this fallen world the power of God comes through Christ and in no other way. He is the mediator between God and man. Without him we would lose the light and power we have and finally be destroyed. I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (D&C 93:2)I don't believe that.If believing in a mediator helps you, good for you, but I see that as a crutch to be outgrown, and most other religions don't have it. Edited October 24, 2015 by Tsuzuki
JLHPROF Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 I don't believe that.If believing in a mediator helps you, good for you, but I see that as a crutch to be outgrown, and most other religions don't have it. You speak like this is something we can choose or reject.Christ as our Savior and Mediator isn't optional. It simply is. You don't even have to believe it. I may not believe that water is wet, but it still is. And the scriptures are clear that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Optional isn't included. 2
sethpayne Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) You speak like this is something we can choose or reject.Christ as our Savior and Mediator isn't optional. It simply is. You don't even have to believe it. I may not believe that water is wet, but it still is. And the scriptures are clear that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Optional isn't included. If JLHPROF were a Muslim: You speak of the Allah like he is something we can choose or reject.That Mohammed is His prophet isn't optional. It simply is. You don't even have to believe it. I may not believe that water is wet, but it still is. And the scriptures are clear that Allah had no son and that in the end, every tongue will confess Allah's name. Optional isn't included. Edited October 24, 2015 by sethpayne 2
JLHPROF Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 If JLHPROF were a Muslim: If I were I'd be wrong.
janderich Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 I don't believe that.If believing in a mediator helps you, good for you, but I see that as a crutch to be outgrown, and most other religions don't have it.The scriptures are plain on this matter, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Do you accept this scripture?
Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) If I were I'd be wrong.What hubris you have. Have you ever examined your own dogma with a skeptical eye. Or do you really believe you have THE TRUTH and everyone else is wrong because God has told you thus? Edited October 25, 2015 by Teancum
JLHPROF Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 What hubris you have. Have you ever examined your own dogman with a skeptical eye. Or do you really believe you have THE TRUTH and everyone else is wrong because God has told you thus? No, I believe that what is true is not an issue of what I believe or what anyone else believes. Truth simply is reality. 1
Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) No, I believe that what is true is not an issue of what I believe or what anyone else believes. Truth simply is reality.You cannot find truth unless you are willing to examine your own cherished beliefs and dogma with skepticism and even a willingness to reject them if they do not stand up. Edited October 25, 2015 by Teancum
Tsuzuki Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 The scriptures are plain on this matter, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Do you accept this scripture?No. Am I supposed to?
Tsuzuki Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 You speak like this is something we can choose or reject.Christ as our Savior and Mediator isn't optional. It simply is. You don't even have to believe it. I may not believe that water is wet, but it still is. And the scriptures are clear that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Optional isn't included.And if I don't bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ, what happens?
Tony Frank Posted October 25, 2015 Author Posted October 25, 2015 You shouldn't take every poetic turn of phrase to be literal truth. Hyperbole, metaphor, and other literary tools are all through scripture.(And since this is coming from a scriptural literalist you can make your own judgement...). I mean, that Book of Revelation could be real scary if every word was literal. As it states in Mosiah 3:19, "The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." Hence, my original statement is accurate and doctrinal: "We are sinners and need Christ to overcome Satan and our evil nature and to be forgiven for our sins." And the brother of Jared was speaking "literal truth" when he said to the Lord, "We know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee that from thee we may receive according to our desires."
Zakuska Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) That is not the same as teaching that humans have an evil nature.The BOM teaches precisely that... "We know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee that from thee we may receive according to our desires." -- Ether 3:2 Edited October 25, 2015 by Zakuska 1
Tony Frank Posted October 25, 2015 Author Posted October 25, 2015 The BOM teaches precisely that..."We know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee that from thee we may receive according to our desires." -- Ether 3:2 I pointed that out, and JLHPROF responded with this. You shouldn't take every poetic turn of phrase to be literal truth. Hyperbole, metaphor, and other literary tools are all through scripture.(And since this is coming from a scriptural literalist you can make your own judgement...). I mean, that Book of Revelation could be real scary if every word was literal. I, in turn, elaborated in post # 90 so that he would better understand.Thanks for adding your voice, Zakuska.
janderich Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 No. Am I supposed to?You are of course free to say there is no Christ just as many have done before you. You are also free to receive any reward Lucifer is handing out if you so desire. I of myself will seek to follow Christ the author and finisher of my faith.
mfbukowski Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 You shouldn't take every poetic turn of phrase to be literal truth. Hyperbole, metaphor, and other literary tools are all through scripture.(And since this is coming from a scriptural literalist you can make your own judgement...).I mean, that Book of Revelation could be real scary if every word was literal.In dealing with Tony, now you know how I feel most of the time around here
Avatar4321 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 What hubris you have. Have you ever examined your own dogman with a skeptical eye. Or do you really believe you have THE TRUTH and everyone else is wrong because God has told you thus?Seems there is hubris in continuing to pretend you don't know when God has answered your prayers. Who are we to reject the Spirit of the Lord when He speaks so clearly and will answer any who seek Him diligently? 1
Tsuzuki Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 You are of course free to say there is no Christ just as many have done before you. You are also free to receive any reward Lucifer is handing out if you so desire. I of myself will seek to follow Christ the author and finisher of my faith.Do what thou wilt.
Tsuzuki Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 Seems there is hubris in continuing to pretend you don't know when God has answered your prayers. Who are we to reject the Spirit of the Lord when He speaks so clearly and will answer any who seek Him diligently?Who are we? We are Gods in embryo with independent agency and a knowledge of good and evil. I know that God answered my prayers when He revealed to me that there is no need for a Christ.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 The real mystery of this life is how to get a functional yet affordable PC office suite without passing our treasure to Bill Gates.https://www.openoffice.org/ Matthew 7:7.
Teancum Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Seems there is hubris in continuing to pretend you don't know when God has answered your prayers. Who are we to reject the Spirit of the Lord when He speaks so clearly and will answer any who seek Him diligently?I shouldn't get into this again. So all I will say is one person's answer my be heresy to another person's answer. But this topic seems an unbridgeable issue for those on opposing sides of the coin so I guess I will leave it at that.Sorry I brought it up. Edited October 25, 2015 by Teancum
JLHPROF Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Who are we? We are Gods in embryo with independent agency and a knowledge of good and evil. I know that God answered my prayers when He revealed to me that there is no need for a Christ. Remind me again why you're a member of the Church? (You did say you were an active member didn't you?) Edited October 25, 2015 by JLHPROF
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