MiserereNobis Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 No, I believe that what is true is not an issue of what I believe or what anyone else believes. Truth simply is reality. And cue mfbukowski in 3, 2, 1... 2
JLHPROF Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 The BOM teaches precisely that..."We know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee that from thee we may receive according to our desires." -- Ether 3:2 I pointed that out, and JLHPROF responded with this. I, in turn, elaborated in post # 90 so that he would better understand.Thanks for adding your voice, Zakuska. This is still false doctrine, not that fallen man has a corrupt nature, but saying that it must continue while in mortality is false. Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. Mosiah 5:2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. I am not saying we will never sin, or that we will never make mistakes. But to say we remain evil and fallen as long as we are in mortality is to ignore the atonement and its effects in this life.Unless of course you don't believe in the power of the atonement to change our nature? "Because this doctrine is so basic to the plan of salvation and also because it is so susceptible to misunderstanding, we must note that these references to "natural" evil emphatically do not mean that men and women are "inherently" evil." Elder Holland 1
Tsuzuki Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 Remind me again why you're a member of the Church? (You did say you were an active member didn't you?)I never said I was active, but I might return to celebrate my cultural heritage.
Avatar4321 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 I never said I was active, but I might return to celebrate my cultural heritage.What is the point of cultural heritage of the culture isn't part of your life? 1
MiserereNobis Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 What is the point of cultural heritage of the culture isn't part of your life? Try telling that to all the LDS converts from traditional Catholic families and cultures 2
Zakuska Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) This is still false doctrine, not that fallen man has a corrupt nature, but saying that it must continue while in mortality is false.Neither I or Tony said any such thing... we both empatically agree with Elder Holland. Edited October 25, 2015 by Zakuska
mfbukowski Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 And cue mfbukowski in 3, 2, 1...I like true chairs and tables. True buildings are even more important. If they aren't true they get all wobbly and stuff and aren't very comfortable to walk uphill in and might even fall on you. But they have a building in Pisa that isn't true and it gets tons of tourists visiting it all the time, so go figure. 2
Tsuzuki Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 What is the point of cultural heritage of the culture isn't part of your life?It is a part of my life, just on my own terms.
Zakuska Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 I like true chairs and tables. True buildings are even more important.If they aren't true they get all wobbly and stuff and aren't very comfortable to walk uphill in and might even fall on you.But they have a building in Pisa that isn't true and it gets tons of tourists visiting it all the time, so go figure.I've noticed that "Everything is true" when kids get up and give their testimony. Its kid of cute.
JLHPROF Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 JLHPROF, on 25 Oct 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:This is still false doctrine, not that fallen man has a corrupt nature, but saying that it must continue while in mortality is false. Neither I or Tony said any such thing... we both empatically agree with Elder Holland. Actually Tony said: Tony Frank, on 22 Oct 2015 - 3:47 PM, said: With or without Christ, a man will have an evil nature until he dies.
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 I've noticed that "Everything is true" when kids get up and give their testimony. Its kid of cute.Cute is always true. That's the one exception to every philosophical principle. 1
MiserereNobis Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Cute is always true. That's the one exception to every philosophical principle. Don't forget that brandishing a poker is a good way, too
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Don't forget that brandishing a poker is a good way, too I think one should poke the brandisher.I just read a book about that incident. Good read! 1
MiserereNobis Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 I think one should poke the brandisher. I just read a book about that incident. Good read! Popper vs Wittgenstein? When words are useless, let's resort to violence! (yes, I know there wasn't violence, but dang, it makes a good story, eh?)
Tony Frank Posted October 26, 2015 Author Posted October 26, 2015 This is still false doctrine, not that fallen man has a corrupt nature, but saying that it must continue while in mortality is false. Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. Mosiah 5:2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. I am not saying we will never sin, or that we will never make mistakes. But to say we remain evil and fallen as long as we are in mortality is to ignore the atonement and its effects in this life.Unless of course you don't believe in the power of the atonement to change our nature? "Because this doctrine is so basic to the plan of salvation and also because it is so susceptible to misunderstanding, we must note that these references to "natural" evil emphatically do not mean that men and women are "inherently" evil." Elder Holland Putting off the natural man does not mean changing our nature. You are actually proving my point: "We are sinners and need Christ to overcome Satan and our evil nature." Perhaps you think that once we have experienced a "mighty change," as did King Benjamin's people, we no longer need Christ to help us put off the natural man, you know, the natural man that is an enemy to God. Why is it so hard to understand that the natural man, being an enemy to God, is evil, which is why we must put off the natural man?
Tony Frank Posted October 26, 2015 Author Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) This is still false doctrine, not that fallen man has a corrupt nature, but saying that it must continue while in mortality is false. Actually Tony said: With or without Christ, a man will have an evil nature until he dies. So, once we experience the "mighty change," we have changed our nature and never have to put off the natural man again? If it becomes our "nature" to "do good continually," then we would no longer need Christ to put off the natural man. The fact is that the natural man is what Satan goes after when he tempts us, whether it is carnal desires, lusting after filthy lucre, pride, envy, etc... It is our "nature" to commit sin, which is why we always have to put off the natural man. King Benjamin's people did put off the natural man and then change who the natural man is and then put the natural man back on again. They put off the natural man and, according to the Book of Mormon, continued to put off the natural man for the rest of their lives. Through Christ, they were able to overcome the natural man, and because of their steadfastness in Christ, they endured to the end in putting off the natural man. Again, man has an evil nature, which is why we must always put off the natural man until the end of our mortal existence. Christ does not change our nature, but through Him we can overcome our nature. Edited October 27, 2015 by Tony Frank
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Popper vs Wittgenstein? When words are useless, let's resort to violence! (yes, I know there wasn't violence, but dang, it makes a good story, eh?)Wittgenstein's Poker by Edmonds Great read. He spends 300 pages on what led up to the confrontation. Bot Popper and W were from the same city- Vienna ( I got to see some of the locations relevant recently over there- very cool but a bit esoteric ) and came from Jewish backgrounds. Remember Austria - WWII and the "Sound of Music" stuff. W was super aristocracy- Klimt the artist pained portraits of his family, they were like the Kennedys almost- super rich father, famous, ran in international circles with all the rich and famous. Ludwig was this kind of family weirdo. Popper came from the other side of the tracks- literally the other side of town, and it was unavoidable to NOT know who W was. Popper was part of the Vienna Circle- kind of a club for "positivists only" - by invitation only. No invitations for W. W had never been said "no" to his entire life. They go into what it was like to be Jewish in Vienna during those times, how the families were different etc etc. Great stuff, and how it all came together with the poker. It wasn't an isolated incident, it had quite a history for each personally. It really had little to do with philosophy in the end- just blind frustration that had built up over years. 1
Avatar4321 Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Putting off the natural man does not mean changing our nature. You are actually proving my point: "We are sinners and need Christ to overcome Satan and our evil nature." Perhaps you think that once we have experienced a "mighty change," as did King Benjamin's people, we no longer need Christ to help us put off the natural man, you know, the natural man that is an enemy to God. Why is it so hard to understand that the natural man, being an enemy to God, is evil, which is why we must put off the natural man?Actually, that's exactly what it means. The atonement of Jesus Christ changes human nature. We are born again and become a new creature. 4
Tony Frank Posted October 27, 2015 Author Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Actually, that's exactly what it means. The atonement of Jesus Christ changes human nature. We are born again and become a new creature. I will say to you precisely what I said to JLHPROF. If it becomes our "nature" to "do good continually," then we would no longer need Christ to put off the natural man. The fact is that the natural man is what Satan goes after when he tempts us, whether it is carnal desires, lusting after filthy lucre, pride, envy, etc. If we no longer had to worry about the natural man, Satan would not be able to tempt us. It is our "nature" to commit sin, which is why we always have to put off the natural man. King Benjamin's people did put off the natural man and then change who the natural man is and then put the natural man back on again. They put off the natural man and, according to the Book of Mormon, continued to put off the natural man for the rest of their lives. Through Christ, they were able to overcome the natural man, and because of their steadfastness in Christ, they endured to the end in putting off the natural man. Again, man has an evil nature, which is why we must always put off the natural man until the end of our mortal existence. Christ does not change our nature, but through Him we can overcome our nature. Edited October 27, 2015 by Tony Frank
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 As I see it we have only one "nature" - not that the word has meaning anyway- and that nature is human nature We can be gods in embryo. We have the potential for divinity inborn. Like a little worm can become a Monarch butterfly, we little sinful worms, through an eternity or two of repentance and learning can become like our Father through Jesus Christ. It is part of the Gift Father has given us. It is who He has created us to be- to fill the measure of our creation and have joy therein. He gives that to us if we do our part of repentance. 1
Avatar4321 Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 I will say to you precisely what I said to JLHPROF. If it becomes our "nature" to "do good continually," then we would no longer need Christ to put off the natural man. The fact is that the natural man is what Satan goes after when he tempts us, whether it is carnal desires, lusting after filthy lucre, pride, envy, etc. If we no longer had to worry about the natural man, Satan would not be able to tempt us. It is our "nature" to commit sin, which is why we always have to put off the natural man. King Benjamin's people did put off the natural man and then change who the natural man is and then put the natural man back on again. They put off the natural man and, according to the Book of Mormon, continued to put off the natural man for the rest of their lives. Through Christ, they were able to overcome the natural man, and because of their steadfastness in Christ, they endured to the end in putting off the natural man. Again, man has an evil nature, which is why we must always put off the natural man until the end of our mortal existence. Christ does not change our nature, but through Him we can overcome our nature.Forgive me if I believe the scriptures, president Benson and president McKay more than you 2
sethpayne Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 Remind me again why you're a member of the Church? (You did say you were an active member didn't you?) 18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen. 1
Bobbieaware Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Forgive me if I believe the scriptures, president Benson and president McKay more than youCan we not all agree that the putting off of the natural man is a lifelong process, and that fully conquering the fallen nature doesn't happen all at once? And can we not also agree that throughout our lives we need to be vigilant in Christ that we do not fall from grace and thereby allow the fallen nature to predominate once again? Christ said we need to pray always lest we give in to the allure of the fallen nature once again and return like a dog to its vomit. Edited October 27, 2015 by Bobbieaware 2
Tony Frank Posted October 28, 2015 Author Posted October 28, 2015 Can we not all agree that the putting off of the natural man is a lifelong process, and that fully conquering the fallen nature doesn't happen all at once? And can we not also agree that throughout our lives we need to be vigilant in Christ that we do not fall from grace and thereby allow the fallen nature to predominate once again? Christ said we need to pray always lest we give in to the allure of the fallen nature once again and return like a dog to its vomit. As the scripture says, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." We will have "the flesh" until we die, at which time the spirit and body separate. Satan will always go after the weakness of the flesh, the natural man.
Avatar4321 Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 "The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.“Human nature can be changed, here and now,” said President McKay, and then he quoted the following:“You can change human nature. No man who has felt in him the Spirit of Christ even for half a minute can deny this truth. …“You do change human nature, your own human nature, if you surrender it to Christ. Human nature has been changed in the past. Human nature must be changed on an enormous scale in the future, unless the world is to be drowned in its own blood. And only Christ can change it.“Twelve men did quite a lot to change the world nineteen hundred years ago. Twelve simple men.” (Beverly Nichols, in David O. McKay, Stepping Stones to an Abundant Life, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1971, p. 23.)"Yes, Christ changes men, and changed men can change the world" (Born of God, Ezra Taft Benson)I know this is true. I've experienced this change. The Lord has changed my nature and the desires of my heart. And without the hope of being changed, there can be no repentance. We don't need to wait to be changed, the Lord can and will change us now.
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