Sacrament Meeting Talk

[mirkwood]

This is the talk I gave in Sacrament Meeting this week.

 

 

Conference was really good.  There were a lot of great messages.  Several things jumped out at me as I listened to the various sessions. 

 

I liked the tribute paid to the Latter Day Saint women of the world.

 

Elder Nelson, an apostle, described you as stalwart women.  The definition of that word includes valiant and steadfast.

 

He went on to say: 

 

“It would be impossible to measure the influence that such women have, not only on families but also on the Lord’s Church, as wives, mothers, and grandmothers; as sisters and aunts; as teachers and leaders; and especially as exemplars and devout defenders of the faith.”

 

“We need women who are organized and women who can organize. We need women with executive ability who can plan and direct and administer; women who can teach, women who can speak out. …

 

“We need women with the gift of discernment who can view the trends in the world and detect those that, however popular, are shallow or dangerous.”

 

“Let me add that we need women who know how to make important things happen by their faith and who are courageous defenders of morality and families in a sin-sick world. We need women who are devoted to shepherding God’s children along the covenant path toward exaltation; women who know how to receive personal revelation, who understand the power and peace of the temple endowment; women who know how to call upon the powers of heaven to protect and strengthen children and families; women who teach fearlessly.

 

“My dear sisters, whatever your calling, whatever your circumstances, we need your impressions, your insights, and your inspiration. We need you to speak up and speak out in ward and stake councils. We need each married sister to speak as “a contributing and full partner” as you unite with your husband in governing your family. Married or single, you sisters possess distinctive capabilities and special intuition you have received as gifts from God.”

 

I am blessed to have had two women in my life like this.  First was my mother, who without exercising these traits, I would not be here as an active member of the church today.  Second is my wife, who helps keep me on track and has been a magnificent influence on our sons.  She is far better then she gives herself credit.

 

I have also been blessed to have the associations of other women in this ward who engender the same traits.  I am sure that all the Sisters of this ward have these traits and are far better then you may think you are.  If you don’t believe that…well…an apostle has said you are. Brethren we can learn from the women in our lives.

 

Another thing that stood out to me was the leadership at the head of our Church.  There is a current of what I will call Mormon Gnosticism that has entered into our faith.  They question our leaders.  They question our history and our faith.  But they don’t end there.  Brothers and sisters, there is nothing wrong with questions.  But when we let our questions turn to doubt and our doubts turn to arrogance and disregard for the leadership the Lord has appointed, we tread on dangerous ground.  Our very salvation is at stake.

 

The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are the appointed leaders and mouthpieces of the Lord for us in these days.  They tell us what we need to know.  They guide us and counsel us on paths that will lead us to safety, both spiritually and temporally.  The gentle reminders of how leadership in our church is established and operates are timely in this day.

 

Elder Ballard reminded us with this statement:

 

“During my nearly 40 years of close association, I have been a personal witness as both quiet inspiration and profound revelation have moved to action the prophets and apostles, the other General Authorities, and the auxiliary leaders. While neither perfect nor infallible, these good men and women have been perfectly dedicated to leading the work of the Lord forward as He has directed.

 

And make no mistake about it: the Lord directs His Church through living prophets and apostles. This is the way He has always done His work. Indeed, the Savior taught, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me.”  We cannot separate Christ from His servants.”

 

He continued with a prophetic statement.

 

Twenty years ago, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” In that inspired document, we concluded with the following: “We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.”

 

As Apostles, we reaffirm this solemn warning again today.

 

Solemn is also defined as serious or earnest.

 

Our church is not one of doomsday preppers.  We are a people of faith.  We believe in God.  We believe in modern revelation that is pertinent to us in our days. 

 

We would be as the foolish virgins to ignore a warning when one is given to us. 

 

That fact that an apostle just reaffirmed a warning during General Conference was not insignificant. 

 

I testify to this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen

 

[stemelbow]

Another thing that stood out to me was the leadership at the head of our Church. There is a current of what I will call Mormon Gnosticism that has entered into our faith. They question our leaders. They question our history and our faith. But they don’t end there. Brothers and sisters, there is nothing wrong with questions. But when we let our questions turn to doubt and our doubts turn to arrogance and disregard for the leadership the Lord has appointed, we tread on dangerous ground. Our very salvation is at stake.

I would argue that doubt is essential for our lives. Without it what are we to do? We must always let doubt help us. But the truth is, we ought to be open and wise enough to accept that challenges that come in the form of doubt and questions are to help us. They can indeed help us understand even more. We shut out too much when we try to stop ourselves from doubting, I'd say.

You seem to have a very poor take on members like me. Though I doubt and question, and raise concerns, that does not mean I wreak of arrogance any more than any other member, nor does it mean I disregard leadership.

[stemelbow]

A competing idea was just started in a different thread:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66206-adam-god-makes-sense-to-occultists/

Do you doubt Brigham's Adam-God doctrine? Do you doubt we understand it? Do you doubt the later LDS leaders who condemned the teaching?

[bluebell]

I would argue that doubt is essential for our lives. Without it what are we to do? 

 

I'm really not sure what you are saying here.  Can you clarify?  Why is doubt essential?

[stemelbow]

I'm really not sure what you are saying here.  Can you clarify?  Why is doubt essential?

\We have to doubt at some point or we'll never be able to know for ourselves. We can't accept every proposition because to do so would cause a great deal of contradiction in ourselves. That's just part of it. Without doubt we wouldn't be able to know the things we're being told are true or useful.

[HappyJackWagon]

\We have to doubt at some point or we'll never be able to know for ourselves. We can't accept every proposition because to do so would cause a great deal of contradiction in ourselves. That's just part of it. Without doubt we wouldn't be able to know the things we're being told are true or useful.

Doubt helps to inform our judgements. It helps us make decisions. Yes. It's essential.

[Tacenda]

Doubt helps to inform our judgements. It helps us make decisions. Yes. It's essential.

Yes it is, and Pres. Uchtdorf agrees...."Doubt your doubts"! 

[Bee Sweet]

Thank-you for posting this! I concur that the Lord directs His church through a living Prophet and Apostles.

[bluebell]

\We have to doubt at some point or we'll never be able to know for ourselves. We can't accept every proposition because to do so would cause a great deal of contradiction in ourselves. That's just part of it. Without doubt we wouldn't be able to know the things we're being told are true or useful.

 

That's an interesting idea.  And i agree with it in most ways though i've never really thought about it before.  The one way that I see a conflict (if the concept is taken to extremes) is in how doubt is used in the scriptures, and how doubt is typically used by our leaders when they tell us to 'doubt our doubts' in so many different ways.

 

When Christ, for example, commands us not to doubt, it seems like He is telling us not to doubt things that have already been revealed to us.  That's how i see the word used most often with our leaders as well.

 

Once we believe that God has told us something thru the spirit and that we have received a witness of it, I think doubt is detrimental and not essential.  

 

The question from all of this is, how can we keep doubt from harming our faith in true things?  How do we keep doubt in it's proper place?

[stemelbow]

That's an interesting idea.  And i agree with it in most ways though i've never really thought about it before.  The one way that I see a conflict (if the concept is taken to extremes) is in how doubt is used in the scriptures, and how doubt is typically used by our leaders when they tell us to 'doubt our doubts' in so many different ways.

 

When Christ, for example, commands us not to doubt, it seems like He is telling us not to doubt things that have already been revealed to us.  That's how i see the word used most often with our leaders as well.

 

Once we believe that God has told us something thru the spirit and that we have received a witness of it, I think doubt is detrimental and not essential.  

 

The question from all of this is, how can we keep doubt from harming our faith in true things?  How do we keep doubt in it's proper place?

I kind of hear ya (-;

I hate to bring it up again, but it is such an excellent example that really helps us investigate these ideas, if you ask me. Remember the First Presidency was so sure, at one time, that the explanation for the priesthood restriction was because of a curse and because of unfaithfulness in the pre-mortal world that they said it was doctrine of the Church and that the attitude of the Church in regards to the "Negroes" was a "direct commandment from the Lord".

Obviously somewhere along the way someone started to doubt the story being told to us by the prophets and apostles. And we're much better off for it, even if we have to deal with the terrible repercussions now.

As per your last question. I think it very important we stop trying to restrict ourselves. We should take confidence that we each can contribute to what the Church is and teaches. The leaders are great, no doubt, but aren't perfect. They too see through a glass darkly. And we also much realize God has everything at His disposal when it comes to teaching us. We're not limited to the Church. We need not be followers of men. We need to take confidence in being able to learn and contribute ourselves.

That's my take.

[bluebell]

As per your last question. I think it very important we stop trying to restrict ourselves. We should take confidence that we each can contribute to what the Church is and teaches. The leaders are great, no doubt, but aren't perfect. They too see through a glass darkly. And we also much realize God has everything at His disposal when it comes to teaching us. We're not limited to the Church. We need not be followers of men. We need to take confidence in being able to learn and contribute ourselves.

 

 

 

The last paragraph kind of made me laugh, because it seems like you are saying 'doubt everyone else, but don't doubt yourself'.  Is that what you meant, or did i totally mess that up?

[stemelbow]

 

The last paragraph kind of made me laugh, because it seems like you are saying 'doubt everyone else, but don't doubt yourself'.  Is that what you meant, or did i totally mess that up?

I wouldn't say that. But I know I struggle and have struggled with not finding confidence to go with what I think, know or understand in favor of what others tell me. That's certainly not to say I too am not wrong about many things. I am. I realize that. I realize I need to doubt my own feelings and thoughts too.

This ain't easy.

[Tacenda]

That's an interesting idea.  And i agree with it in most ways though i've never really thought about it before.  The one way that I see a conflict (if the concept is taken to extremes) is in how doubt is used in the scriptures, and how doubt is typically used by our leaders when they tell us to 'doubt our doubts' in so many different ways.

 

When Christ, for example, commands us not to doubt, it seems like He is telling us not to doubt things that have already been revealed to us.  That's how i see the word used most often with our leaders as well.

 

Once we believe that God has told us something thru the spirit and that we have received a witness of it, I think doubt is detrimental and not essential.  

 

The question from all of this is, how can we keep doubt from harming our faith in true things?  How do we keep doubt in it's proper place?

I think that some feel doubt is important in order come to an authentic belief.  IOW, some who've grown up in the church and taken it on the word of others when they've shared thoughts and feelings that the church is true. 

 

Maybe for those members, me included, they didn't find out for themselves.  They believed since a child, it was taught to them that it was true.  Somewhat a brain wash, I know that TBM's hate that expression, but it happens each Sunday or mid week activitiy.  So when a person like this doubts, they may go down a rabbit hole and never return to that belief and the only thing they can do is, like Pres. Uchtodorf mentioned in conference, choose to believe.  

 

For some this is what is needed so they don't go off into a path of wrong choices that affect themselves and their families etc.  I believe this is where a lot of people are in the church.  It keeps them on the straight and narrow, and that is truth to them. 

 

But the lucky few that get an actual spiritual revelation (well that would be so nice) that JS saw what he did in the grove and translated the gold plates by the power of god, are the lucky ones.   

 

I see now the need to constantly work on our testimonies....never understood in my believing days why in the lessons our leaders & teachers would urge us to work on our testimony.  Mine was a given, I never questioned the church being true.  And therefore never worked on my testimony, I guess, which led me to my state of mind today.   

 

So it's hard to say doubt is good, especially when my doubt led me down the road, but the only good thing to come of it, is if I reach a level of belief again it won't get harmed with anything on the internet!    

Edited October 13, 2015 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

But the lucky few that get an actual spiritual revelation (well that would be so nice) that JS saw what he did in the grove and translated the gold plates by the power of god, are the lucky ones.   

Not necessarily at all.

 

We just get to doubt about whether or not our own minds produced the "revelation" and whether or not that makes a difference.

 

For me, it makes no difference, but others obsess about that sort of thing and many have left over precisely this question.

 

You can doubt anything.  Bertrand Russel -  a great logician- actually made the case that it is possible that the earth sprung into existence 5 minutes ago and that our memories are manufactured. 

 

 

CHAPTER I. APPEARANCE AND REALITY

Is there any knowledge in the world which is so certain that no reasonable man could doubt it? This question, which at first sight might not seem difficult, is really one of the most difficult that can be asked. When we have realized the obstacles in the way of a straightforward and confident answer, we shall be well launched on the study of philosophy—for philosophy is merely the attempt to answer such ultimate questions, not carelessly and dogmatically, as we do in ordinary life and even in the sciences, but critically, after exploring all that makes such questions puzzling, and after realizing all the vagueness and confusion that underlie our ordinary ideas.

In daily life, we assume as certain many things which, on a closer scrutiny, are found to be so full of apparent contradictions that only a great amount of thought enables us to know what it is that we really may believe. In the search for certainty, it is natural to begin with our present experiences, and in some sense, no doubt, knowledge is to be derived from them. But any statement as to what it is that our immediate experiences make us know is very likely to be wrong. It seems to me that I am now sitting in a chair, at a table of a certain shape, on which I see sheets of paper with writing or print. By turning my head I see out of the window buildings and clouds and the sun. I believe that the sun is about ninety-three million miles from the earth; that it is a hot globe many times bigger than the earth; that, owing to the earth's rotation, it rises every morning, and will continue to do so for an indefinite time in the future. I believe that, if any other normal person comes into my room, he will see the same chairs and tables and books and papers as I see, and that the table which I see is the same as the table which I feel pressing against my arm. All this seems to be so evident as to be hardly worth stating, except in answer to a man who doubts whether I know anything. Yet all this may be reasonably doubted, and all of it requires much careful discussion before we can be sure that we have stated it in a form that is wholly true.

 

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5827/5827-h/5827-h.htm

[Robert F. Smith]

............................................................................   

 

The question from all of this is, how can we keep doubt from harming our faith in true things?  How do we keep doubt in it's proper place?

Doubting Thomas was an Apostle of the Lord.  He was honest and forthright.  There is nothing wrong with doubt in its proper place.  The trick is to know what that proper place is.

[JLHPROF]

Doubting Thomas was an Apostle of the Lord.  He was honest and forthright.  There is nothing wrong with doubt in its proper place.  The trick is to know what that proper place is.

 

True.

If Joseph hadn't doubted the truth claims of the Methodists (and other contemporary sects) he might not have sought solace in the book of James.

(Ironically, in the verse that tells us to ask, nothing doubting).

And then were would we be?

[bluebell]

True.

If Joseph hadn't doubted the truth claims of the Methodists (and other contemporary sects) he might not have sought solace in the book of James.

(Ironically, in the verse that tells us to ask, nothing doubting).

And then were would we be?

Are having doubts and having questions the same thing?

[JLHPROF]

Are having doubts and having questions the same thing?

 

Sure, pretty much.  Every doubt is a question of the truthfulness of something.

Doubt just leans to the negative, where hope leans to the positive.

[mfbukowski]

Sure, pretty much.  Every doubt is a question of the truthfulness of something.

Doubt just leans to the negative, where hope leans to the positive.

OOO, nice!

[Calm]

Perhaps the difference is in the way the uncertainty is phrased..."is there something wrong with..." is a very different approach than "is there somehing right with..." even though both are come from a lack of certainty or recognition of incomplete knowledge.

[Stargazer]

I would argue that doubt is essential for our lives. Without it what are we to do? We must always let doubt help us. But the truth is, we ought to be open and wise enough to accept that challenges that come in the form of doubt and questions are to help us. They can indeed help us understand even more. We shut out too much when we try to stop ourselves from doubting, I'd say.

You seem to have a very poor take on members like me. Though I doubt and question, and raise concerns, that does not mean I wreak of arrogance any more than any other member, nor does it mean I disregard leadership.

Leave it to an optimist to describe doubt as essential! I'd say doubt is unavoidable, inevitable, and always present. It is something that we swim in day by day, and must defy in order to break free of its cold shackles, because succumbing to those shackles will spell our doom. But in a certain sense you are right. Doubt is essential, because without the opposition of our doubt, how high could our triumphs of faith really be? For doubt is part and parcel of the opposition in all things.

And I guess that makes me, too, an optimist.

[BTH&T]

Great Post Mirkwood, thanks for the share!

 

 

IMO doubt is not essential, but it is inevitable.

It is something we want to move from. I view it as darkness, and we should seek light.

Look at the definition and see that it is negative in all its forms, we should not seek it nor look for it. When we do experience it we should face it and use what we do know and gain more light and knowledge.

Doubt = Fear, opposite of faith, truth, light.

So no, it's not essential but it is a part of life we struggle through.

 

 

Doubt

verb (used with object)

1. to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe.

2. to distrust.

3. Archaic. to fear; be apprehensive about.

verb (used without object)

4. to be uncertain about something; be undecided in opinion or belief.

noun

5. a feeling of uncertainty about the truth, reality, or nature of something.

6. distrust.

7. a state of affairs such as to occasion uncertainty.

8. Obsolete. fear; dread.