Saint Sinner Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Guess we found a soft spot. Val, my experience with the CofC is first hand; it is not based upon the experiences of others or hearsay. I read the testimonies of individuals who have felt the spirit in CofC meetings. Perspectives are hardly, if ever, unique. That is not what I alleged. You made claims about the Church of Jesus Christ, which fit within your perspective and have nothing to do with reality. It works for you; great, but it is not reality. Time to "get real" as you said. The significant loss of membership within the CofC occurred after they made significant changes in their doctrine and practice; specifically the priesthood, authority, and other teachings. As they continued down this path of liberalization they lost more than half their membership. If not the changes, what reasons would you provide for such a major loss of members?What claims did Valentinus make against the church?
Saint Sinner Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) Do you have figures to quantify their loss over the years and when losses occurred? That'd help. I've looked and haven't found much.I believe the majority of the losses occurred after the implementation of Section 156 in 1984. Valentinus is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.Furthermore, from what I've gathered, there has been no significant loss after Section 164 was canonized in 2010 or the resolutions agreed upon at their National Conference in 2013. Edited October 2, 2015 by Saint Sinner
stemelbow Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 I believe the majority of the losses occurred after the implementation of Section 156 in 1984. Valentinus is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong. Furthermore, from what I've gathered, there has been no significant loss after Section 164 was canonized in 2010 or the resolutions agreed upon at their National Conference in 2013. That's what I've heard. I just want to be able to quantify the loss. My mission was to Independence, MO. I was in the area and heard from many as we traveled around about the mistakes made in the, then, Reorganized Church, both by LDS members and those who had since left the Reorganized Church.
JAHS Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 What do you mean, "what would happen"? We'd become more likeable? That would be terrible...I think what happens is described in what Jesus said: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt 7: 13-14) With some of the things they have done it appears they are trying to broaden the way.
Gray Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 I think what happens is described in what Jesus said: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt 7: 13-14) With some of the things they have done it appears they are trying to broaden the way. Actually, isn't it the opposite? They made an unpopular change that cost them membership.
bluebell Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 What claims did Valentinus make against the church? I think that SR interpreted Val's statement of- "The great thing about Community of Christ is that they emphasize community (Mission Initiatives) over conformity (dogmatism)."-as a comparison between the CoC and the LDS church, meaning that the LDS church does not emphasize community nor its missions and instead focuses on dogmatism.
JAHS Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Actually, isn't it the opposite? They made an unpopular change that cost them membership. The members that have been lost did not want to take the broad path.
Gray Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 The members that have been lost did not want to take the broad path. What is broad about the path they took?
thesometimesaint Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Having a form of priesthood but denying the power there of.
Saint Sinner Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) I think that SR interpreted Val's statement of-"The great thing about Community of Christ is that they emphasize community (Mission Initiatives) over conformity (dogmatism)."-as a comparison between the CoC and the LDS church, meaning that the LDS church does not emphasize community nor its missions and instead focuses on dogmatism.I didn't see that as a passive aggressive comparison.Does the LDS church have mission initiatives that consistently serve in holistic ministries? And this not meant to include allocation of monies via a tithing slip. Edited October 2, 2015 by Saint Sinner
Bobbieaware Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Unlike the illogical and unfounded and demonstrably false assertions that Wallace B. Smith somehow apostatized, Community of Christ is doing well and serves the needs of people everywhere. For those who were prideful over Section 156 and chose to leave...good for them. But I find it odd that these who kick against the pricks refuse to have their names removed from church records.Furthermore, any official or unofficial opinion about Community of Christ on the behalf of the LDS church is irrelevant. I'm glad the rumor mills perpetuated by ignorance have died considerably. The LDS church will never get the Kirtland Temple. They'll never get the full Temple Lot. Community of Christ does not have any outstanding financial agreements with the LDS. They are not near bankruptcy...Or any other host of deliberate misinformation.Do you know if it's one of the teachings of the Community of Christ that they will fulfill the prophecy of building the New Jerusalem in Independence Missouri?
Saint Sinner Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 I'm asking if the LDS church has anything as detailed as this:God’s Vision Made Real in ChristIn Luke 4:18–19, in response to the Spirit’s guidance, Jesus proclaims his mission when he reads from the Isaiah scroll:The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.Jesus is anointed for a divine mission:Evangelism—sent to proclaim good news and invite others to join him in missionCompassionate ministries—reaching the brokenhearted, the suffering, and those who need hope and Christ’s peaceJustice and peacemaking—release those held captive by unjust systems and the circumstances of life that devalue the worth of any personThe kingdom was present in Jesus’ ministry and his disciples’ actions as described in Acts. Those first Christians continued Christ’s mission by proclaiming the Living Christ, inviting all people into fellowship, valuing the worth of each person, generously and compassionately meeting their needs, and pursuing justice and peace for everyone. Our call is to reclaim the same vision and passion for the full mission of Jesus Christ today! It’s time for us to be a prophetic people characterized by uncommon devotion to the compassion and peace of God revealed in Jesus Christ.Beloved children of the Restoration, your continuing faith adventure with God has been divinely led, eventful, challenging, and sometimes surprising to you. By the grace of God, you are poised to fulfill God’s ultimate vision for the church. —Doctrine & Covenants 164:9aMission Made RealChrist’s mission is our mission. From this point forward, all ministries, personnel, and resources of the World Church will be focused on the whole mission of Jesus Christ through five, life-changing, church-changing, and world-changing Mission Initiatives. Invite People to ChristWe are poised to share the peace of Jesus Christ with those who are waiting to hear the redeeming words of the gospel.We fulfill God’s ultimate vision as we…Baptize/Confirm Many New MembersOpen New CongregationsLaunch the Church in New NationsAbolish Poverty, End SufferingWe are poised to be Christ’s hands and feet, reaching out through compassionate ministries that serve the poor and hungry and stop conditions that diminish the worth of persons.We fulfill God’s ultimate vision as we…Help Those Who HurtFeed the HungrySupport Compassionate MinistriesRespond in Times of CrisisPursue Peace on EarthWe are poised to restore Christ’s covenant of peace, even the Zion of our hopes. The hope of Zion will become reality when we live Christ’s peace and generously share his peace with others.We fulfill God’s ultimate vision as we…Establish the Temple as a Center to Promote Peacemaking throughout the WorldEngage Children in Peacemaking around the WorldSeek Justice, Create Peacemakers around the WorldUnite with Others to Make Peace around the WorldDevelop Disciples to ServeWe are poised to equip men, women, and children to be true and living expressions of the life, ministry, and continuing presence of Christ in the world.We fulfill God’s ultimate vision as we…Help All Ages Deepen Their DiscipleshipEmpower Priesthood for MissionGrow Pastors and Leaders for MissionTrain and Send Ministers for Mission throughout the WorldExperience Congregations in MissionWe are poised to become congregations that are the true and living expressions of Jesus Christ, woven together by the Spirit, and sent into the world as evangelistic witnesses, compassionate ministers, and justice and peacemakers.We fulfill God’s ultimate vision as we…Nurture Congregations of Christ’s Love and PeaceExperience God’s Presence through WorshipBecome a People of Peace, Reconciliation, and Healing of the SpiritChrist's Mission—Our Mission—YOUR Mission
bluebell Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 I didn't see that as a passive aggressive comparison.Does the LDS church have mission initiatives that consistently serve in holistic ministries? And this not meant to include allocation of monies via a tithing slip. The LDS church has a four-fold mission: Perfect the saints, redeem the dead, preach the gospel, and care for the poor and needy. Everything the church does fulfills one of its missions. 2
JAHS Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 What is broad about the path they took? Allowing same sex marriage. Ordaining sexually active gays and women to the priesthood. Changing to a rather vague, New Age “social gospel”. Recognizing baptism (sprinkling, pouring, or immersion) by any ordained minister of any church (ie. no priesthood authority). No eternal marriage. Generally speaking they are moving toward looking more like other Christian churches.
Gray Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Allowing same sex marriage. Ordaining sexually active gays and women to the priesthood. Changing to a rather vague, New Age “social gospel”. Recognizing baptism (sprinkling, pouring, or immersion) by any ordained minister of any church (ie. no priesthood authority). No eternal marriage. Generally speaking they are moving toward looking more like other Christian churches. From the perspective of "successful" (ie conservative) religious movements, that actually sounds like the narrow path that few find. For the most part, at least.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 What do you mean, "what would happen"? We'd become more likeable? That would be terrible...But at what cost? 2
pogi Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 But at what cost? Good point! Likability didn't seem to be on top of Christ's priorities when he established his church and doctrines. 1
Bobbieaware Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 What do you mean, "what would happen"? We'd become more likeable? That would be terrible...I'm wondering how your envisioned more "likeable" Church squares with the following statement from Jesus Christ, the leader of the Church; 18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me. (John 15) 2
Storm Rider Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 I'm asking if the LDS church has anything as detailed as this: I am not aware of anything so succinctly stated as what you provided form their website (I think). Just being curious, did Christ have anything so succinctly stated? If not, does that also condemn Jesus and the early church? My point is that I am not sure of the standard you are presenting as being something of true significance. Everything in it is stated in the gospel and believed and taught by the Church.
Gray Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 I'm wondering how your envisioned more "likeable" Church squares with the following statement from Jesus Christ, the leader of the Church;18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me. (John 15) On the other hand, if we didn't care about being liked, we wouldn't be doing interfaith outreach and we wouldn't have a public relations group.
pogi Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) On the other hand, if we didn't care about being liked, we wouldn't be doing interfaith outreach and we wouldn't have a public relations group. That's true. It's not that we don't care about being liked, it's more that we try to avoid being " children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine" in order to make everybody comfortable. We don't broaden the gates or widen the way to conform to the wishes of man. As much as we would like people to like us, we do not seek for it at any cost. People simply are not going to like us, and that's ok. Edited October 2, 2015 by pogi 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 That's true. It's not that we don't care about being liked, it's more that we try to avoid being " children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine" in order to make everybody comfortable. We don't broaden the gates or widen the way to conform to the wishes of man. As much as we would like people to like us, we do not seek for it at any cost. People simply are not going to like us, and that's ok. Are you (and others) implying this is what the community of Christ did? That instead of seeking God's will through prayer, the leaders of that church sought to conform to the wishes of man to get people to like them?
smac97 Posted October 2, 2015 Author Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) On the other hand, if we didn't care about being liked, we wouldn't be doing interfaith outreach and we wouldn't have a public relations group. I think Latter-day Saints and the Church want to be "liked." We want to get along with others. We want to be good neighbors. We want to be kind to, and receive kindness from, others. We want to work with others on areas of common interest and concern. We want to accommodate differing points of view whenever possible. We want to demonstrate the benefits derived from living according to the Restored Gospel. What we don't want, I think, is to pay for all these things by surrendering our sacred beliefs and practices. I think the perception among some Latter-day Saints is that the CoC has capitulated on their beliefs by doing the sorts of things described in JAHS' post #89 above (allowing same sex marriage, ordaining sexually active gays and women to the priesthood, etc.). I recognize, of course, that there are critics of the LDS Church who level the same accusation at us (polygamist sects, Denver Snuffer, etc.). The next question for me, then, is how to incorporate this consideration when assessing the changes in the LDS Church (cessation of polygamy, rescinding the priesthood ban, etc.), and the refinements (improving treatment of people with same-sex attraction, disavowal of "theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else", condemnation of racism, expanding the role of women in the Church, etc.) and/or lack of changes (maintaining the Church's position on issues like same-sex marriage, female ordination, etc.). For me, I believe the Church is in communion with God, that it retains its authority and divine mandates, that it is improving its understanding, interpretation and application of revealed truths, and that the foregoing changes, refinements, and lack of changes are generally good and in accordance with God's will. Can the CoC folks say pretty much the same thing about their faith and the impact of the various changes described above? Sure! That's why I think we Latter-day Saints would be better off not making public pronouncements on such things as observed in other faith groups. Let's exercise the Golden Rule a bit here. Thanks, -Smac Edited October 2, 2015 by smac97 4
Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) On the other hand, if we didn't care about being liked, we wouldn't be doing interfaith outreach and we wouldn't have a public relations group. I guess the bottom line is that in the Church of Jesus Christ, cultivating "likability" will always be a lower priority than upholding doctrine, standing on principle and proclaiming truth. Furthermore, the impression I get is that the role of the Public Affairs Department in the Church is to help ensure the Church is understood accurately and fairly at least as much as it is to put a favorable public face on the Church. At least that's what it should be. That ought to be the intent of any good "public relations group," for that matter. Edited October 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 1
pogi Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) Are you (and others) implying this is what the community of Christ did? That instead of seeking God's will through prayer, the leaders of that church sought to conform to the wishes of man to get people to like them? No. Others suggested that we would become more "likable" if we became more progressive like the community of Christ. I was responding to that. Edited October 2, 2015 by pogi 1
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