Dissatisfied Liberal Mormons Find Refuge In The Community Of Christ (?)

[VideoGameJunkie]

Certainly comes off that way after the first post.

[smac97]

So now you're calling me unintelligent?

No. At no point have I said or implied anything about your intelligence.

Why do you keep having to add personal jabs to your posts about my intelligence.

I did no such things. Your comments/observations about LDS doctrine appear to be materially incorrect. And even though you've been on an LDS-themed message board long enough to log more than 2,000 posts (a number which is usually limited to those who are quite conversant with LDS doctrine), I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are simply not very familiar with this aspect of our beliefs (and not that you are deliberately misrepresenting our beliefs).

Does it stroke your ego knowing you know so much and I know so little? Does it make you feel better?

No, it does not.

Please review my previous post #43, which outlines some basic points which clarify LDS doctrine on this point, and which contravene the remarks in your post #41.

If you are going to be on this board and make public pronouncements about our faith, I think it would be a good idea to be reasonably informed about our faith. As you apparently were lacking familiarity with this particular point of doctrine, now you are not.

I have already apologized for my tone and apologized. Can we reconcile and move forward?

Thanks,

-Smac

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well Jesus said turn the other cheek so I guess I'll do that. Just know that it can seem like when someone says you're great unimformed, it can sound like they're saying you're unintelligent and have no idea what you're talking about.

[Damien the Leper]

For those in SLC, Community of Christ Prophet, Steve Veazey, will be speaking and worshipping at SLC Community of Christ @ 7pm.

Come hear a prophet's voice at 2747 Craig Dr, SLC, 84109.

http://www.cofchristslc.org

[Damien the Leper]

Seth Bryant's story

I grew up Mormon, in an inactive family. When I was 14, I had a religious awakening and started attending my local ward in Sandy, Utah.

From a very early age, even before I became an active member of the LDS Church, I had a clear sense that inequalities existed in our world that were contrary to God’s will.

My first awareness of this came from my father, a convert to Mormonism who was never very interested in attending church. One Christmas Eve when I was a child, after visiting my great-grandmother in downtown Salt Lake, we saw an old man in a foot cast and very shabby clothes slip and fall as he was working his way down an icy road. My dad helped him up and asked him where he was headed. We took this man, who was likely homeless, to the bus terminal so that he could get back to his family for the holidays. My dad even re-gifted Grandma Bryant’s fruit cake, and gave him some money as well so he could make the trip. We were poor ourselves, but he gave him a twenty-dollar bill, a very generous amount in the early 80s.

When I became active in the LDS Church, I identified this generosity as one of the key elements of Zion. But as the years went on, Zion seemed ever elusive and distant. I reached a point of disaffection and even anger over a variety of matters—from unhealthy apologetics in church history, to exclusion of women from the priesthood, and from inattention towards the poor, to treatment of my brothers and sisters in the LGBT community. But, like many others, I continued to attend, because I felt it was the one true church. I hoped that someday we would live up to the call of Zion, but my church was becoming a stumbling block to my ability to connect with God.

One Sunday, while doing research as a graduate student in religion, I visited the Community of Christ congregation in Gainesville, Florida. As I walked in, I found that their Sunday School class had just ended. The topic was on whether they should provide actual sanctuary within their church building to illegal aliens as informed by Hebrew, Christian, and Restoration scripture.

Flabbergasted, I sat down, only to find a piece of paper tucked between the seats. The paper read at the top “Doctrine and Covenants 163.” My eyes were drawn to this verse: “Above all else, strive to be faithful to Christ’s vision of the peaceable Kingdom of God on earth. Courageously challenge cultural, political, and religious trends that are contrary to the reconciling and restoring purposes of God. Pursue peace.”

As the service began, I noted many things that were different. It was especially anomalous when a woman stood to bless their sacrament of bread and wine. But as she spoke, I heard these familiar words, “O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee…”. Then, another familiar experience occurred—the Spirit of God washed over me like fire burning in my chest. It was so powerful, I was almost overwhelmed.

I then asked God, “What are You doing here?” In my prayers, I had been begging to feel the Spirit in any of my church meetings for years, so it was beyond troubling that God had shown up at some apostate group. In that moment, I sensed that God had a much bigger vision of the kingdom to share with me; but that, if I saw it, I could never go back to seeing things the same way.

It’s my story and my witness that wherever you find the Spirit you find God’s kingdom. And the visible fruits of that kingdom are people engaged in the mission of Christ, establishing communities of joy, hope, love, and peace. When I first experienced this truth, I sensed that God’s kingdom could be potentially found within all of Christianity and beyond, the invisible church of God’s people aided to varying degrees by their traditions. I also came to realize that the LDS Church could be a place that people lived out Christ’s mission, but that it held no exclusive claims to such. For me, it was no longer a place that I could grow, and indeed had become the exact opposite. By joining Community of Christ, I was able to engage prophetically in the cause of Zion. It felt like I had come home for the first time.

I love Community of Christ, as a true and living church. It is not perfect, as no earthly institution is. But, Community of Christ ever strives to be a reflection of God’s perfect kingdom in heaven. It is this institutional awareness and humility that I find refreshing. I delight that the church only exists to realize Christ’s mission, giving generously of itself to serve those on the margins on society, that peace might reign. And in Community of Christ, I find purpose and hope. I truly love it!

[Kenngo1969]

I don't wear a suit, I sit in the back row of the church, I don't shake everyone's hand, and don't say much in Sunday School.

It has worked so far.

 

 

Really? You're seriously doing this?

Just curious,

-Smac

 

 

Take it easy Smac, I'm mostly joking.  

This conversation reminds me of what my cousin did right before he was called to be a bishop.  Apparently, suspecting what was coming when he was asked to meet with the stake president, he put a can of chewing tobacco, a pack of cigarettes, and a beer in his briefcase.  When the time came, he took them all out one by one and said, "Now, I want you to know, I don't actually use any of this stuff ... but I could."   It didn't work.  He was called as a bishop anyway.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

For those in SLC, Community of Christ Prophet, Steve Veazey, will be speaking and worshipping at SLC Community of Christ @ 7pm.

Come hear a prophet's voice at 2747 Craig Dr, SLC, 84109.

http://www.cofchristslc.org

I appreciate the invite, but I'll wait 'til Saturday, thanks!

Edited October 2, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[SeekerB]

I think most men who end up being called as bishops don't aspire to that position, either. I just find it a wee bit odd that some might take specific and deliberate countermeasures calculated to affirmatively avoid the calling.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

 

I remember years ago, we were getting a new Stake President.  The wife of the current one spoke in our Ward Conference. One thing she said stuck with me.  She stated that there were several potential candidates who were not sleeping well for fear it might be them.

Edited October 2, 2015 by SeekerB

[Storm Rider]

I have mentioned before that my aunt and uncle are members of the CofC.  They are none too happy with the changes that have taken place over the last 30 years, but remain committed to their small branch in northwest Florida.  They are wonderful people.  They often speak in terms of "we", "us", and "Mormons".  My aunt's family have been members for a several generations and still have family members living in Independence.  It is a shame that they lost more than half their membership when they chose to change so many of their doctrines and beliefs; however, they now have a church that gives those who are left a place to worship in the manner they choose.

 

I am glad that people can find a home where they can learn to be Christlike.  If others want to join them, then more power to them.  There are some things they do exceptionally well.  

[Damien the Leper]

I appreciate the invite, but I'll wait 'til Saturday, thanks!

To each their own. The great thing about Community of Christ is that they emphasize community (Mission Initiatives) over conformity (dogmatism).

[Scott Lloyd]

I have friends in the Community of Christ, and I respect them and their church.

 

But I think it is a laboratory example of what would happen to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if the self-styled "progressives" among us were permitted to hijack it.

[carbon dioxide]

Some people want to be a part of a religion not because it is true or right but our of reasons to feel good about themselves and the lives they have chosen to live.  The LDS Church is not one of those that exist to make people feel comfortable.  It is a good thing that Jesus did not have the attitude of these people.  He could have found a number of reasons not to go through with the atonement.  It would have so much easier to take the easy, comfortable road than give his will up.  But for some, it in the end it will always be my will be done.

[Kenngo1969]

I have friends in the Community of Christ, and I respect them and their church.

 

But I think it is a laboratory example of what would happen to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if the self-styled "progressives" among us were permitted to hijack it.

 Ding, ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!!!    "Tell him what he's won, Bob!"

[Storm Rider]

To each their own. The great thing about Community of Christ is that they emphasize community (Mission Initiatives) over conformity (dogmatism).

 

Come on, Val.  That is your perspective and has little resemblance to reality.  It says more about you than it does about the Church.  

[Storm Rider]

I have friends in the Community of Christ, and I respect them and their church.

 

But I think it is a laboratory example of what would happen to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if the self-styled "progressives" among us were permitted to hijack it.

 

I agree with this completely.  The only reason my relatives remain is that they are elderly and have such close emotional ties with the other members.  In their own words, they hardly have any appreciation for the leaders who have destroyed their church.  Having said that, they and I would agree that there remains a lot of good there.

[Damien the Leper]

Come on, Val.  That is your perspective and has little resemblance to reality.  It says more about you than it does about the Church.

This shows how very little you know about how people experience Community of Christ. Go to the previous page and read the testimony of Seth Bryant. Listen to what Steve Shields and John Hamer have to say and share. My perspective is not unique, Storm. Time to get real. As for the snide remark of a progressive lab experiment gone wrong, according to Scott...nothing could be further from the truth. People outside Community of Christ don't get to speak authoritatively about the realities of Community of Christ. That demonstrates a ridiculous amount of audacity, arrogance and delusion.

[Damien the Leper]

Unlike the illogical and unfounded and demonstrably false assertions that Wallace B. Smith somehow apostatized, Community of Christ is doing well and serves the needs of people everywhere. For those who were prideful over Section 156 and chose to leave...good for them. But I find it odd that these who kick against the pricks refuse to have their names removed from church records.

Furthermore, any official or unofficial opinion about Community of Christ on the behalf of the LDS church is irrelevant. I'm glad the rumor mills perpetuated by ignorance have died considerably. The LDS church will never get the Kirtland Temple. They'll never get the full Temple Lot. Community of Christ does not have any outstanding financial agreements with the LDS. They are not near bankruptcy...Or any other host of deliberate misinformation.

[stemelbow]

I have friends in the Community of Christ, and I respect them and their church.

 

But I think it is a laboratory example of what would happen to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if the self-styled "progressives" among us were permitted to hijack it.

What do you mean, "what would happen"? We'd become more likeable? That would be terrible...

[stemelbow]

Unlike the illogical and unfounded and demonstrably false assertions that Wallace B. Smith somehow apostatized, Community of Christ is doing well and serves the needs of people everywhere. For those who were prideful over Section 156 and chose to leave...good for them. But I find it odd that these who kick against the pricks refuse to have their names removed from church records.

Furthermore, any official or unofficial opinion about Community of Christ on the behalf of the LDS church is irrelevant. I'm glad the rumor mills perpetuated by ignorance have died considerably. The LDS church will never get the Kirtland Temple. They'll never get the full Temple Lot. Community of Christ does not have any outstanding financial agreements with the LDS. They are not near bankruptcy...Or any other host of deliberate misinformation.

It seems like any supposed possibility of another failing and LDS winning being voiced at Church quickly disseminates throughout. More faith promoting stories and anecdotes are made in such a way at Church than there are faith promoting experiences, it seems.

Just to play the devil I might try an experiment on this.

[thesometimesaint]

Just as someone can believe that church narratives can provide spiritual truths even though the narratives are not historically accurate (e.g., the story of Christ visiting the Americas can bring us closer to God even if it's made up), someone can believe that church ordinances can function to point people toward God and improve their lives without believing that LDS-authorized ordinances are the only ones to have a lasting effect. In short, LDS ordinances can be viewed as something very good and even Godly, but not necessary. In such a worldview, it's reasonable to press for expanded ordination as something that would benefit the church (and thereby one's family in the church) but when one feels rejected then decide that it's healthier to pursue God in other, non-LDS, spheres.

 

I'm not describing myself BTW. Just helping you to understand one possible mindset of those who you say you don't understand.

 

So promoting a deliberate falsehood brings us closer to God? That is something I've never understood by those that promote that idea.

Edited October 2, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Gray]

I've been consistently impressed with the COC members I've encountered online, although I don't think I've ever met one IRL

[Storm Rider]

This shows how very little you know about how people experience Community of Christ. Go to the previous page and read the testimony of Seth Bryant. Listen to what Steve Shields and John Hamer have to say and share. My perspective is not unique, Storm. Time to get real. As for the snide remark of a progressive lab experiment gone wrong, according to Scott...nothing could be further from the truth. People outside Community of Christ don't get to speak authoritatively about the realities of Community of Christ. That demonstrates a ridiculous amount of audacity, arrogance and delusion.

 

Guess we found a soft spot.

 

Val, my experience with the CofC is first hand; it is not based upon the experiences of others or hearsay.  I read the testimonies of individuals who have felt the spirit in CofC meetings.  Perspectives are hardly, if ever, unique.  That is not what I alleged.  You made claims about the Church of Jesus Christ, which fit within your perspective and have nothing to do with reality.  It works for you; great, but it is not reality.  Time to "get real" as you said.

 

The significant loss of membership within the CofC occurred after they made significant changes in their doctrine and practice; specifically the priesthood, authority, and other teachings.  As they continued down this path of liberalization they lost more than half their membership.   If not the changes, what reasons would you provide for such a major loss of members?

[Storm Rider]

I've been consistently impressed with the COC members I've encountered online, although I don't think I've ever met one IRL

 

Visit one of their congregations.  They are good people.  Each of the ones that I know or have met appear to strive to follow Christ in their daily actions.  They are worth meeting and knowing. 

[Gray]

Visit one of their congregations.  They are good people.  Each of the ones that I know or have met appear to strive to follow Christ in their daily actions.  They are worth meeting and knowing. 

 

I'll have to do that, thanks

[stemelbow]

Guess we found a soft spot.

 

Val, my experience with the CofC is first hand; it is not based upon the experiences of others or hearsay.  I read the testimonies of individuals who have felt the spirit in CofC meetings.  Perspectives are hardly, if ever, unique.  That is not what I alleged.  You made claims about the Church of Jesus Christ, which fit within your perspective and have nothing to do with reality.  It works for you; great, but it is not reality.  Time to "get real" as you said.

 

The significant loss of membership within the CofC occurred after they made significant changes in their doctrine and practice; specifically the priesthood, authority, and other teachings.  As they continued down this path of liberalization they lost more than half their membership.   If not the changes, what reasons would you provide for such a major loss of members?

Do you have figures to quantify their loss over the years and when losses occurred? That'd help. I've looked and haven't found much.