Emeritus Apostles?

[Thinking]

I have no opinion on the matter, but with the passing of three apostles recently whose mental capacities were questionable, I would like to know what the members of this board think about emeritus status for apostles. What about an incapacitated prophet?

[VideoGameJunkie]

They didn't do it for Ezra Taft Benson, so I doubt they'd do it now.

[Calm]

As long as they can appoint however many assistants that are needed for the first presidency and as long as there are enough of the 12 and 70s to meet the needs of the Church I see it as unlikely.  But if it becomes difficult to run the Church, then I could see it...but I see that as unlikely.

[Kenngo1969]

CFR that the mental capacity of all three was "questionable."  The only one about whom I saw anything of the kind written was Elder Scott (I believe the phrase used was "fading memory incident to age").  I never saw anything akin to that reported regarding President Packer or Elder Perry.  That said, I wouldn't necessarily object to extending emeritus designation to members of the Twelve, but that's up to the Lord.  Until then ...

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1994/04/god-is-at-the-helm?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/sustaining-the-prophets?lang=eng

[VideoGameJunkie]

How do you feel the church should have treated Ezra Taft Benson in his last years when he was basically gone and Gordon B Hinckley was running things?

[Calm]

With respect and love...like they did, I believe.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I believe, and forgive me if I am wrong (I am doing this off the top of my head), that at least once the High Priest of the Church position among the Nephites was handed over to another before death. I will try to research it later, but this is a busy week with Tabernacles and all.

Edited September 29, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[mnn727]

 whose mental capacities were questionable,

Want to supply some proof of that?

[jkwilliams]

Is there any doctrinal reason that the church couldn't implement an emeritus status for the apostles and First Presidency? Admittedly, I haven't been looking for it, but I don't recall any scriptural statement that says it's a lifetime calling. Seems to me that the church could just set an age, as they did with the Seventy, and the next in line who are not yet that age would assume the presidency.

But I'm not in a position to tell the church how to run itself.

[HappyJackWagon]

Is there any doctrinal reason that the church couldn't implement an emeritus status for the apostles and First Presidency? Admittedly, I haven't been looking for it, but I don't recall any scriptural statement that says it's a lifetime calling. Seems to me that the church could just set an age, as they did with the Seventy, and the next in line who are not yet that age would assume the presidency.

But I'm not in a position to tell the church how to run itself.

I don't think there's any doctrinal reason but I also don't expect to impose emeritus status on someone. If it happens I would expect it to come from someone like Elder Scott or Pres. Benson, someone is really struggling physically and not functioning in their calling, to request it. I'm thinking of the Pope Benedict model. If an apostle is adamant about resigning the position or pleads the case for their replacement I think the church could adjust. It certainly wouldn't be the end of the world if apostles achieved emeritus status- especially if they request it.

[jkwilliams]

I don't think there's any doctrinal reason but I also don't expect to impose emeritus status on someone. If it happens I would expect it to come from someone like Elder Scott or Pres. Benson, someone is really struggling physically and not functioning in their calling, to request it. I'm thinking of the Pope Benedict model. If an apostle is adamant about resigning the position or pleads the case for their replacement I think the church could adjust. It certainly wouldn't be the end of the world if apostles achieved emeritus status- especially if they request it.

That's why I would just set an age limit, like they do with the Seventy. When a Seventy hits that age (70, IIRC), they are given emeritus status, and there's no suggestion it's being imposed on them.

But, I'm not in charge, and I agree that it's extremely unlikely. I just don't see the point in having men who are physically or mentally incapacitated stay in those positions for no reason than it's tradition they stay until they die. I remember watching conference when I was a freshman in college, and the entire First Presidency was wheeled in and slumped in their seats, unable to address the conference. It just seemed unnecessary and a little macabre.

[Kenngo1969]

... with the passing of three apostles recently whose mental capacities were questionable ...

 

 

CFR that the mental capacity of all three was "questionable."  ...

 

Want to supply some proof of that?

That's two CFRs, Thinking.

 

[insert man-checking-watch and man-twiddling-thumbs icons, respectively, here.]

 

With respect to the prophet, specifically, yes, it's nice to have someone who can travel, gets out among the Saints, regularly delivers his own addresses in General Conference (it's funny; President Benson's "Beware of Pride" address had such a big impact on me, I'd swear [if I were a swearin' man!] that I can remember him delivering it personally, even though President Hinckley read it), et cetera but, really, the only thing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "needs" a prophet for is to hold the keys.  (I believe Mark Beesley, an erstwhile poster here, was the first to make that point.)  And even if one posits that an elderly prophet spends most of his time disengaged from the day-to-day running of the Church of Jesus Christ and/or off in la-la-land, that doesn't mean he cannot have as many lucid moments as the Lord needs him to have. 

[HappyJackWagon]

 

 

 

That's two CFRs, Thinking.

 

[insert man-checking-watch and man-twiddling-thumbs icons, respectively, here.]

 

With respect to the prophet, specifically, yes, it's nice to have someone who can travel, gets out among the Saints, regularly delivers his own addresses in General Conference (it's funny; President Benson's "Beware of Pride" address had such a big impact on me, I'd swear [if I were a swearin' man!] that I can remember him delivering it personally, even though President Hinckley read it), et cetera but, really, the only thing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "needs" a prophet for is to hold the keys.  (I believe Mark Beesley, an erstwhile poster here, was the first to make that point.)  And even if one posits that an elderly prophet spends most of his time disengaged from the day-to-day running of the Church of Jesus Christ and/or off in la-la-land, that doesn't mean he cannot have as many lucid moments as the Lord needs him to have. 

If Pres. Benson was incapable of reading his Beware of Pride talk it makes you wonder if he was capable of writing it. There have been rumors for a long time that it was written by his daughter in law. It seems plausible to me which is ironic since it is one of the things he is best known for.

[Derl Sanderson]

I'm more than mildly interested in what take HappyJackWagon and jkwillams might have on Spencer Kimball, who, as a member of the Twleve, did exactly as they seem to be proposing. Elder Kimball was in very poor health and proposed to the First Presidency that he be replaced in the Quorum. According to his biographer, Harold B. Lee slammed his fist on the desk and in no uncertain terms told Elder Kimball that no such thing would be considered and that he should undertake the very risky heart surgery that was the only option open to restoring some degree of Elder Kimball's health (see the first few pages of Lengthen Your Stride, one of the finest biographies of any Church president).

 

Some guy named Russell M. Nelson performed the surgery and says that in the middle of the operation, he was given a witness that Elder Kimball would become the president of the Church.

 

So ... you two fellers want to have forgone one of the most significant ministries of any church president in our history?

 

[Sevenbak]

I have no opinion on the matter, but with the passing of three apostles recently whose mental capacities were questionable, I would like to know what the members of this board think about emeritus status for apostles. What about an incapacitated prophet?

This issue was addressed directly in conference last year. It's a great read if you haven't read it.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/sustaining-the-prophets?lang=eng

[jkwilliams]

I'm more than mildly interested in what take HappyJackWagon and jkwillams might have on Spencer Kimball, who, as a member of the Twleve, did exactly as they seem to be proposing. Elder Kimball was in very poor health and proposed to the First Presidency that he be replaced in the Quorum. According to his biographer, Harold B. Lee slammed his fist on the desk and in no uncertain terms told Elder Kimball that no such thing would be considered and that he should undertake the very risky heart surgery that was the only option open to restoring some degree of Elder Kimball's health (see the first few pages of Lengthen Your Stride, one of the finest biographies of any Church president).

 

Some guy named Russell M. Nelson performed the surgery and says that in the middle of the operation, he was given a witness that Elder Kimball would become the president of the Church.

 

So ... you two fellers want to have forgone one of the most significant ministries of any church president in our history?

If this is God's church, I'm sure He can fulfill His purposes without having someone who is incapacitated occupy a leadership position. To me, it seems pointless and a bit cruel to insist that men who are otherwise completely out of it remain in their positions. But I'm not in charge, and I'm not telling the church what they should do.

[KevinG]

How many Israelites griped that Moses wasn't up to the task at the battle of Rephidim when Aaron and Hur had to help him hold it up?

[jkwilliams]

How many Israelites griped that Moses wasn't up to the task at the battle of Rephidim when Aaron and Hur had to help him hold it up?

Who's griping?

[KevinG]

Who's griping?

 

Ezra Taft Benson's cartoonist grandson for starters... 

[jkwilliams]

Ezra Taft Benson's cartoonist grandson for starters...

I didn't realize he was posting here.

[KevinG]

I didn't realize he was posting here.

 

I wasn't limiting my observations on the subject to those who are posting here.  The world is a much bigger place than the interwebz.  

[hagoth7]

I believe, and forgive me if I am wrong (I am doing this off the top of my head), that at least once the High Priest of the Church position among the Nephites was handed over to another before death. I will try to research it later, but this is a busy week with Tabernacles and all.

Perhaps you're thinking of this? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/1.2-3?lang=eng#1

 

As a side note, I read an intriguing little book several years back which suggested that Nephi, who left the land, was accompanied by his brother, and Samuel the Lamanite...and that those three became the Wise Men of the New Testament who visited the Christ-child. (Some early depictions of the wise men depict one of them as having darker skin.)

[The Nehor]

It could happen but I doubt they would put an age on it. President Hinckley was strong until the end and an age limit would have been unnecessary. If it were implemented I imagine it would be run by a combination of practicality and with a strong dose of revelation. They would retain the apostolic office but be released from the Twelve.

I doubt it will happen but if the Brethren decide via revelation that it should I will back them.

[KevinG]

It could happen but I doubt they would put an age on it. President Hinckley was strong until the end and an age limit would have been unnecessary. If it were implemented I imagine it would be run by a combination of practicality and with a strong dose of revelation. They would retain the apostolic office but be released from the Twelve.

I doubt it will happen but if the Brethren decide via revelation that it should I will back them.

 

During the time that President Benson's grandson was making public remarks about the Prophet's health and how the church was handling it...  I was reminded by a priesthood leader that the tradition of having the senior (first called) Apostle's succeed to the Presidency was just that; tradition not doctrine.  And that if the Lord required He could call a local Bishop to be Prophet and bypass those in the Quorum of the 12.

 

Food for thought.

[HappyJackWagon]

I'm more than mildly interested in what take HappyJackWagon and jkwillams might have on Spencer Kimball, who, as a member of the Twleve, did exactly as they seem to be proposing. Elder Kimball was in very poor health and proposed to the First Presidency that he be replaced in the Quorum. According to his biographer, Harold B. Lee slammed his fist on the desk and in no uncertain terms told Elder Kimball that no such thing would be considered and that he should undertake the very risky heart surgery that was the only option open to restoring some degree of Elder Kimball's health (see the first few pages of Lengthen Your Stride, one of the finest biographies of any Church president).

 

Some guy named Russell M. Nelson performed the surgery and says that in the middle of the operation, he was given a witness that Elder Kimball would become the president of the Church.

 

So ... you two fellers want to have forgone one of the most significant ministries of any church president in our history?

Derl. May I call you Derl? OK. Good.

 

You're suggesting that I WANT to forgo the presidency of Spencer Kimball? CFR. Show me where I said, or even implied I would be happy if we hadn't had Pres. Kimball. Don't waste your time because I know you can't do it. Simply retract and I'll be happy.

 

What I said, and I think it's clear to anyone who reads for comprehension, is that I could see emeritus status becoming a thing, especially if the incapacitated member made requested it. It may not have happened with Pres. Kimball, though I'm not familiar with that story, but if someone put their foot down and said they were retiring, like Pope Benedict did, it's hard to imagine the church forcing them to continue as an apostle. That just doesn't make sense to me. I can see them trying to talk the apostle out of the decision, maybe even with a pounding on the table with a fist like pres. Lee, but I can't see them forcing the issue. Once it happens and the tradition is less pristine, it would be easier to have others follow.

 

That's what I said, Derl. Don't misrepresent.

Edited September 29, 2015 by HappyJackWagon