Kenngo1969 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 It may not be inevitable but exceptions are rare. Mental functioning does diminish with age. I am in my mid-30s and my ability to memorize things and recall things has already noticeably diminished. ... Fine, but as I said in that post, mental decline is one thing; mental decline to the point of senility is entirely another. I doubt you're in danger of lapsing into senility anytime soon.
The Nehor Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Fine, but as I said in that post, mental decline is one thing; mental decline to the point of senility is entirely another. I doubt you're in danger of lapsing into senility anytime soon. Well, I hope not. However, some apostles have slipped into some degree of senility. Elder Haight springs to mind again.
Thinking Posted September 30, 2015 Author Posted September 30, 2015 I still don't appreciate your implication that, apparently, mental decline or insufficiency necessarily or overwhelmingly co-occurs with its physical counterpart. I never said or implied this.
Sevenbak Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Well, I hope not. However, some apostles have slipped into some degree of senility. Elder Haight springs to mind again.It was interesting, watching Elder Haight at the funeral yesterday. After all the rest of the Q12 went down to be honorary pallbearers as the coffin exited the building, he stayed in his chair for nearly 5 minutes, alone on the stand, until someone came and helped him get up and walk out the back. I don't know if they forgot about him, but I felt bad for him.
The Nehor Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 It was interesting, watching Elder Haight at the funeral yesterday. After all the rest of the Q12 went down to be honorary pallbearers as the coffin exited the building, he stayed in his chair for nearly 5 minutes, alone on the stand, until someone came and helped him get up and walk out the back. I don't know if they forgot about him, but I felt bad for him. Uh.......Elder Haight is dead and has been for some time. I think you meant another apostle.
Sevenbak Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Oops, sorry long day. Elder Hales. You said Haight and I thought Hales. Good thing we didn't throw Holland into the mix. ;-) Edited September 30, 2015 by Sevenbak
Kenngo1969 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) ... I still don't appreciate your implication that, apparently, mental decline or insufficiency necessarily or overwhelmingly co-occurs with its physical counterpart. ... I never said or implied this. Coulda fooled me. I'll have to take your word for it. Edited September 30, 2015 by Kenngo1969
Calm Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 It was interesting, watching Elder Haight at the funeral yesterday. After all the rest of the Q12 went down to be honorary pallbearers as the coffin exited the building, he stayed in his chair for nearly 5 minutes, alone on the stand, until someone came and helped him get up and walk out the back. I don't know if they forgot about him, but I felt bad for him.More than likely, they were waiting for the crowd to clear out.
Sevenbak Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 More than likely, they were waiting for the crowd to clear out.I don't think so. They took him out the back, not through the crowds, which at that point was still just family. There was probably a good reason, just felt bad for him is all.
Dgal Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 I remember just how bad ETB suffered from dementia that last few years of his life. I wish the Church would not have put him out there, front and center, in his clearly declined state. Even if they dont impliment an emeritus status, they shouldn't put any human being thru that, when they are clearly no longer mentally capable. ETB was severe.
CMZ Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) One important point here is that the Good Ship Zion still sails onward even if an apostle or prophet or two is not the spring chicken they used to be. There's already a system in place where we are never totally reliant on any one mortal person. Nothing to get hung up over. The real Head of the Church is in pretty good shape. Edited September 30, 2015 by CMZ 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 I hope one of the 3 new apostles is young like when Thomas S Monson was 36 and is able to give decades of service. Also we need a new generation of Mormons at the top.
Tacenda Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) VGJ, I look at a young apostle in an immature way and think how much of their lives are spent on that one calling. And never being able to get out of it. So an older apostle would be my choice. Edited September 30, 2015 by Tacenda
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Well what better way to spend your life than by serving the Lord.
CMZ Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Certainly going to be interesting with three vacancies. I don't think they will choose anyone younger than 50 but I'm very willing to be wrong. I also sort of hope for variety's sake that they are not all called from the lower ranks of general authorities.
Tacenda Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Well what better way to spend your life than by serving the Lord.That's why I'm immature, but isn't serving in a ward and your family or the community a way also? I just think it's such a long commitment to have to make, with no return. But I'm sure they're happy.
KevinG Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 I'm afraid I'm going to need a CFR on that. The way succession is set up now, the President of the Q12 immediately becomes the Church President the moment the previous President dies. There isn't an instant of time when there isn't a presiding authority in the Church and someone else could be called to the position. At this point, the President of the Q12 forms a new First Presidency, but that is a matter of course. He doesn't have the option to decline to be the Church President and pass it along to "a local Bishop." That is the practice. The CFR is for yourself. Show me the "doctrine" where that is stated in the canon. Not that it is likely, but it is possible for the practice to be changed due to revelation from God.
KevinG Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 I never said or implied this. Then you might want to rephrase your statement given the context of the conversation. You certainly sent that message if you intended to or not. 1
cinepro Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) That is the practice. The CFR is for yourself. Show me the "doctrine" where that is stated in the canon. Not that it is likely, but it is possible for the practice to be changed due to revelation from God. Here is the doctrine in the canon: http://D&C 132 Other than the theoretical "with God, all things are possible" type of argument, there really isn't any mechanism for it to happen. It would be just as likely (and easy) for God to call a woman as the next Prophet. Even from a theoretical perspective, I don't see how it would be possible. If you think about it, an angel (or the Lord) would have to appear to the Apostles and command that the President of the Q12 (now President Nelson) is no longer the presiding authority in the Church, but instead Bishop Smith from Sandy, Utah will be the Prophet. And why? Could Bishop Smith be better prepared? Could he be more open to receiving inspiration? Perhaps he has some good ideas on how the Church should be run that God somehow couldn't communicate to the other Apostles? It would be slightly more possible for God to instead re-arrange the seniority in the Q12, so when an apostle dies they receive revelation that Elder Oaks is supposed to be the President of the Quorum and not Elder Nelson, or something like that. But again, pretty slim. So yes, there is a theoretical chance of it happening, but so small that I would classify it as not possible. What would worry me is that by saying it is possible, you would effectively be saying that the current Q12 are in apostasy and so God would have to recruit from outside the Quorum. That would be a reason for a non-Apostle to be called (and then he would have to excommunicate the apostate Apostles and call new ones). So I guess we would have to ask how likely it is that we have this, and that would tell us how likely the alternate scenario is. Edited October 1, 2015 by cinepro
cinepro Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Actually, here's a better point. In the thread on John Willard Young, I shared this story of how the rules for succession were changed by President Lorenzo Snow, ostensibly to prevent John Young from ascending to the Presidency: On March 31, 1900, the aging President Lorenzo Snow and his counselors, George Q. Cannon and Joseph F. Smith, had a private discussion, in which they agreed that the previous policy of apostolic seniority by date of ordination, which Brigham Young had implemented, was incorrect, and that seniority should be gauged by date of entrance into the Quorum. Although Joseph F. Smith had ranked below Brigham Young, Jr., in Quorum rankings, succession sequence, and solemn public sustainings in conference, Snow told Smith that Brigham Young, Jr., would now rank below him in seniority. There is no escaping the fact that this was a straightforward change in policy; nevertheless, it was also an entirely reasonable and sensible change. However, there remained the difficult problem of informing Brigham Jr. that neither he (nor John Willard) would be the next president of the church. http://67.20.122.117/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V35N04_125.pdf If it were possible for God to call someone out of order, then there would be no concern about an unsuitable Apostle being next in line. President Snow would know this, and upon his death, the other Apostles would be inspired to not sustain John Young, but instead would sustain the person God did want to be Prophet (apparently Joseph F. Smith). But instead, the actual process had to be changed before President Snow's death.
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