Thinking Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 BD's The Underlying Principles For Mark E Petersen's Address thread raised some questions that I think would make for an interesting discussion. Did we have a perfect knowledge in the preexistence? Note: In an LDS context I would define perfect knowledge to mean God's knowledge. If the answer is yes,How could a being (Lucifer) with perfect knowledge even think to rebel against God?What is the purpose of this earth life if we already had perfect knowledge? If the answer is no,Why would the punishment for a being without perfect knowledge be outer darkness? 1
ksfisher Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 If the answer is no,Why would the punishment for a being without perfect knowledge be outer darkness? Answering this question would seem to require knowledge that we don't have now. As with so many other things in this life, we need to have faith in God's love for his children, his plan, and his knowledge.
JAHS Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) We did not have a perfect knowledge in the pre-mortal life because we did not yet have the expereince of mortal life.We did have enough knowledge of God's plan of salvation (and Lucifer's) so that we could make a choice of which one to follow. Those who went to outer darkness had the same amount of knowledge of God's plan, but they chose to follow Lucifer's plan.It was based on the choice they made with the knowledge they had; not because of a lack of perfect knowledge. Edited September 10, 2015 by JAHS 2
Storm Rider Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 BD's The Underlying Principles For Mark E Petersen's Address thread raised some questions that I think would make for an interesting discussion. Did we have a perfect knowledge in the preexistence? Note: In an LDS context I would define perfect knowledge to mean God's knowledge. If the answer is yes,How could a being (Lucifer) with perfect knowledge even think to rebel against God?What is the purpose of this earth life if we already had perfect knowledge? If the answer is no,Why would the punishment for a being without perfect knowledge be outer darkness? Lucifer knew who and what God was; his problem was ego. He wanted to have the glory; he wanted the adulation of all creation. The purpose of this life is to gain a physical body and learn to coordinate the physical body and the spirit.
JAHS Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 First you asked did "we" have a perfect knowledge, but then your follow up questions seem to focus only on Lucifer.Neither Jesus nor Lucifer had the experience of a mortal life as God the Father did; so neither one of them had the same complete perfect knowledge that the Father had.
Thinking Posted September 10, 2015 Author Posted September 10, 2015 First you asked did "we" have a perfect knowledge, but then your follow up questions seem to focus only on Lucifer. True. The question about Lucifer came to my mind when I was reading BD's thread. Receiving a punishment for an action requires knowledge that the action was wrong. In the other thread the focus was on whether premortal choices affect our state here on earth. LDS are taught that some spirits rebelled to the point that they were cast out forever. That's an infinite punishment.
Thinking Posted September 10, 2015 Author Posted September 10, 2015 Neither Jesus nor Lucifer had the experience of a mortal life as God the Father did; so neither one of them had the same complete perfect knowledge that the Father had. Your answer then would be no, so how do you answer the followup question? If the answer is no,Why would the punishment for a being without perfect knowledge be outer darkness?
JAHS Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 Your answer then would be no, so how do you answer the followup question? If the answer is no,Why would the punishment for a being without perfect knowledge be outer darkness? Like I said, it was what they chose to do with the knowledge they had. And because Lucifer wanted all the glory and not give any to God.Just like we are all different here, our spirits were also different in the premortal life and able to make correct or incorrect choices based on our basic character and humility and willingness to follow God the Father or not follow Him. We were all pretty much equal with regards to the limited knowledge we all had. Some made an incorrect choice.
The Nehor Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 I am convinced that the door to Outer Darkness is locked on the inside. If they did repent they would be forgiven but they have lost the impulse to do good entirely and there is no desire for it left in them.No, not full knowledge. Lucifer was a putz. 2
RevTestament Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 If the answer is no,Why would the punishment for a being without perfect knowledge be outer darkness? They did not have enough faith to rely upon the Lord, but followed their own will instead, which is what Satan did, so ended up following him.To come to earth, we must assent to Heavenly Father's plan, and be willing to humble ourselves to live His plan of perfection in order to receive a body.They weren't willing to do that.
Tsuzuki Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 How could a being (Lucifer) with perfect knowledge even think to rebel against God?He never rebelled. He's just doing His job.
Sanpitch Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 Didn't God want all the glory just as Satan did. As I stated in a thread long ago, we have God's and Jesus Christ's side of the story, but we never read or hear of Satan's. Maybe he has a PR problem.
The Nehor Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 Didn't God want all the glory just as Satan did. As I stated in a thread long ago, we have God's and Jesus Christ's side of the story, but we never read or hear of Satan's. Maybe he has a PR problem. Having lived in this world for some time I am pretty impressed with his PR department. 4
DJBrown Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 BD's The Underlying Principles For Mark E Petersen's Address thread raised some questions that I think would make for an interesting discussion. Did we have a perfect knowledge in the preexistence? Note: In an LDS context I would define perfect knowledge to mean God's knowledge. If the answer is yes,How could a being (Lucifer) with perfect knowledge even think to rebel against God?What is the purpose of this earth life if we already had perfect knowledge? If the answer is no,Why would the punishment for a being without perfect knowledge be outer darkness? I believe we did not have a perfect knowledge in the pre-mortal life. We knew right from wrong generally. But not as clearly as experiencing both good and evil in a mortal world with a mortal body. I think many of those who followed Lucifer likely believed that he could possibly win and take over. I think those souls are somehow better off than those who come to earth and become sons of perdition. Christ said of those who offend children that it would have been better had they not been born. I think that we have an augmented sense of right and wrong in this life and have more accountability as a result. But I could be wrong.
Thinking Posted September 11, 2015 Author Posted September 11, 2015 I think many of those who followed Lucifer likely believed that he could possibly win and take over. I think those souls are somehow better off than those who come to earth and become sons of perdition. Do you think they will get a second chance on another world?
DJBrown Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 Do you think they will get a second chance on another world? No.
strappinglad Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 Here in mortality we get punished all the time for actions taken without a full understanding. A toddler walks to the edge of a cliff and slips. Gravity is relentless.
RevTestament Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 Do you think they will get a second chance on another world?Yes, possibly, but they will have to assent to heavenly Father's plan, which will be Jesus' plan next time around. It probably also involves starting at the bottom of the "totem pole" so to speak. While there are spirits who did assent to the plan, but seem destined so:"those who blaspheme against the Holy Ghost shall have no forgiveness in this world or the next."
The Nehor Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 Do you think they will get a second chance on another world?They could have a second chance now if they would repent......but they won't.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 What are examples of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. I want to make sure I never do it and I don't fully understand what it means.
Tsuzuki Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 What are examples of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. I want to make sure I never do it and I don't fully understand what it means."The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices."- Liber Libraehttp://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib30.html
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 Thanks man! Thank goodness I haven't done that.
JLHPROF Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 There is no such thing as "perfect knowledge".All truth is independent in the sphere in which it is placed. We had more knowledge in the pre-earth life than we have here, but at the same time we came here to learn things that we could not know there. When we enter the Celestial Kingdom we will continue to learn eternally until we progress beyond that sphere. Knowledge is endless. Outer Darkness as "punishment" for the 1/3 part of the host has little to do with what they knew or didn't know, but with willingness to follow God, just as it does here. Outer darkness is the natural consequence of rejecting further light and losing the light you already have, not a punishment by a vengeful deity. 3
RevTestament Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 What are examples of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. I want to make sure I never do it and I don't fully understand what it means.murder is one
janderich Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 A couple of thoughts: Perfect knowledge: I generally agree with JLHPROF that truth is independent in each sphere. However, there is certain knowledge which must be gained in order to become a Son of Perdition. One must receive the Holy Ghost in full, receive the Son of God, and understand the plan of salvation and then reject it. Here is the key to becoming a Son of Perdition, "In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness where there is no light Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with hose of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is usless to them as an agent of growth and development (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 125) Body: Joseph Smith said, "A man cannot commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body” (TPJS 357). If this be true how could Satan and the 1/3 become a Son of Perdition without a body?
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