Discussing Polygamy Essay With My Ward, 5Th Sunday Lesson Experience

[ALarson]

I thought I'd just start a new discussion rather than try to post this over on the polyandry thread.  My Bishop taught our ward's 5th Sunday discussion (with the adult members) yesterday and the topic was the church's essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" ( https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng).

 

I first want to thank all those on here who gave suggestions, sources and links at my requests for help with this lesson.  I passed all of them on to my Bishop who wanted me to express his thanks too as he used many of them to prepare and teach the discussion.

 

I'll report as accurately as I can how it went and I'd appreciate it if we can keep the "attacking the members for not knowing about Joseph's polygamy" out of the discussion.  We can discuss at length how members should have known about it, how many on here can post the few random places it was mentioned over the years (in the Ensign or Institute Manuals), and how members could have researched it on their own and found the information, but the fact seems to remain that the majority of members just do not know most of the details regarding how Joseph lived polygamy until they read the essay and do more of their own research now (at least the members in my ward did not know about them and from what the Bishop told me, the Stake President is finding this is the case in all the wards in our stake) 

 

My Bishop did a great job of just following the essay as it has been written (using helps and sources given here or that he found on his own too).  Word had gotten out that he was teaching about polygamy (we passed the essay out the week before for members to read in preparation for the lesson) and it was interesting to see several members attend yesterday that I hadn't seen at church for a few years.  

 

For most of the lesson, people just sat and listened very attentively.  It's a topic that hasn't been discussed on Sunday (at least in our ward) and most members were extremely interested in the topic and wanted to know more about it.

 

I can go into more detail regarding the content of the lesson, but it was very close to what was in the essay.

 

At the end of the lesson, the Bishop told the members that he'd like to get an idea of what their reactions have been to reading the essay and also if this was the first time they became aware of most of this.  

 

So he asked people to just be completely honest and here are the questions he asked (he asked them to raise their hands in response):

 

Prior to reading the essay:

 

- How many had the impression that Joseph had lived polygamy?  Most all hands went up from what I could see.

 

- How many knew for sure that he'd taken plural wives while he was still alive?  Many of the hands went down, but more stayed up.

 

- How many knew Joseph had taken more than 30 plural wives?  Nearly every hand went down, but a few stayed up and he asked them how they'd known.  They all answered that it was from their own research, reading and studying the topic.  None of them had ever heard it discussed at church.

 

- How many thought Joseph was only sealed to a few widows?  Again, nearly all hands went up.

 

- How many knew he married some women or girls who were at a very young age?  All went down again other than most of the same ones that stayed up who knew Joseph had more than 30 wives (just a few).

 

-  How many knew what polyandry was prior to reading the essay?  Very few hands went up and again mostly those who'd done their own research.  A few stated they knew what that word meant but didn't know Joseph had lived it.  Many knew about Joseph asking Heber for Vilate but thought it was just a test and that Joseph never married another man's wife.

 

There may have been a few more questions, but I've tried to paraphrase them as best I could above and give an accurate portrayal of the responses.  

 

Overall it was an extremely good and interesting discussion.  There was one sister who became visibly upset and got up and left (her husband went out after her or that's how it seemed).  I don't know what upset her.  

 

There were some good, thoughtful questions asked.  The Bishop did a great job of answering them and he also stressed how they could now follow up by reading the sources given in the footnotes, etc. and teach the information to their youth (when they felt it was appropriate age wise).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rockpond]

Thanks for sharing.  I am very impressed with you and your Bishop.

 

I'm curious... logistically, do you make arrangements for all adults to be in the class?  Or are those adults teaching primary/youth not involved?

[hope_for_things]

What  an awesome ward and stake, thanks so much for sharing with us.  I’m curious if the Bishop got into the justification for the polygamy doctrine very much in the conversation.  The essay wants to put all the blame on God, that polygamy was a commandment that Joseph was coerced into practicing through very literal/tangible threats from an angel with a flaming sword.  Did he get into that piece, and were there any questions or comments about this? 

[ALarson]

Thanks for sharing.  I am very impressed with you and your Bishop.

 

I'm curious... logistically, do you make arrangements for all adults to be in the class?  Or are those adults teaching primary/youth not involved?

My Bishop has decided to not include the youth in the essay discussions (but as I mentioned above, he encourages parents to discuss it with their youth when the feel it's appropriate).  He did want all the adult members (who wanted to) be in attendance yesterday, so he had arranged for the older youth (Priests and Laurels) to team teach the classes in Primary, help with the music and so on.  

[rockpond]

My Bishop has decided to not include the youth in the essay discussions (but as I mentioned above, he encourages parents to discuss it with their youth when the feel it's appropriate).  He did want all the adult members (who wanted to) be in attendance yesterday, so he had arranged for the older youth (Priests and Laurels) to team teach the classes in Primary, help with the music and so on.  

 

Thanks... we've done that (YM/YW take over primary) on a very few select occasions.  I think it's really nice for the Bishop to be able to talk to nearly all of the adults at once but try not to abuse it (our youth are awesome but I don't think primary is quite as reverent under their charge).

[ALarson]

What  an awesome ward and stake, thanks so much for sharing with us.  I’m curious if the Bishop got into the justification for the polygamy doctrine very much in the conversation.  The essay wants to put all the blame on God, that polygamy was a commandment that Joseph was coerced into practicing through very literal/tangible threats from an angel with a flaming sword.  Did he get into that piece, and were there any questions or comments about this? 

He didn't try to get into the reasons or justifying any of the details (although he was asked a few questions that he struggled with answering).  He just kept stressing how each member needs to study this on their own too, pray about it and that there will most likely still be questions that they might not know the answers to until later (again, I'm paraphrasing).

 

The answer many have to accept regarding many questions is that "we just simply don't know".

 

It was very obvious that the most upsetting details are the number of wives Joseph had, the ages of them, and then that he married other mens' wives.  The angel with the flaming sword wasn't discussed much, but was mentioned by someone (I think it states it as only a "drawn sword" in the essay).

 

One thing I meant to add above is that the Bishop asked if any of them knew the names of any of Joseph's plural wives (prior to now).  The name that they answered with was "Eliza R. Snow" and several of them added that they thought she was sealed to Joseph after his death.  Most indicated that they didn't know names, but only that they were older widows.

 

There were also quite a few questions about why this information hadn't been included in lessons before or discussed before now.

Edited August 31, 2015 by ALarson

[ALarson]

It will be interesting to see what the fall out is for this discussion (and those are my Bishop's own words when we talked yesterday after the meeting).  He thinks (and I do too) that many weren't comfortable expressing their thoughts or questions in front of everyone but may come to him with questions or will want to talk privately with him.  He did invite anyone to do this who wanted to discuss it further.

[strappinglad]

I'm wondering how often this essay needs to be presented to the members so that critics will not be able to say that the Church hides its history. Every year? Every 4 years when D&C 132 is covered? Every decade ? As an opening lesson in Gospel Principles?

[Tacenda]

And you live in Utah ALarson?!?!

[ALarson]

I'm wondering how often this essay needs to be presented to the members so that critics will not be able to say that the Church hides its history. Every year? Every 4 years when D&C 132 is covered? Every decade ? As an opening lesson in Gospel Principles?

I didn't hear any member use the word "hide" yesterday.

 

I think if it just becomes part of discussing the history of plural marriage in the church, that'll be great.  It shouldn't be avoided when teaching about the lives of those Prophets, Apostles or early members who practiced polygamy since it was a part of their lives.

[ALarson]

And you live in Utah ALarson?!?!

Nope!!  But out west

[Mars]

i would have very much enjoyed being a part of that.  what a neat experience.

[hope_for_things]

He didn't try to get into the reasons or justifying any of the details (although he was asked a few questions that he struggled with answering).  He just kept stressing how each member needs to study this on their own too, pray about it and that there will most likely still be questions that they might not know the answers to until later (again, I'm paraphrasing).

 

The answer many have to accept regarding many questions is that "we just simply don't know".

 

The "we simply don’t know" answer is one that I feel much more comfortable with now, but early on in my faith crisis it really bothered me.  Black and white thinking Mormons are used to having clear answers to questions, I’m thinking this would leave a lot of people unsatisfied.  I like your comment about the fallout, and I think it will be interesting to see what that is.  Please keep us posted, I really appreciate hearing about your ward’s experiences.  

Edited August 31, 2015 by hope_for_things

[hope_for_things]

I'm wondering how often this essay needs to be presented to the members so that critics will not be able to say that the Church hides its history. Every year? Every 4 years when D&C 132 is covered? Every decade ? As an opening lesson in Gospel Principles?

 

The majority of the church members will need to be knowledgeable about messy church history.  It will need to be part of our regular discussions in church, part of our missionary message, part of our culture.  Faith promoting erroneous myths will need to be replaced with messages that express the complexities of reality.  The Disney version of church history needs to be retold.

[HappyJackWagon]

Well done, ALarson. It sounds like a very good and important step.

I feel badly for the woman who became upset and left. This can be traumatic information  and it's a lot to process at first. I wouldn't be surprised if there were many others there begin researching this a bit more. It will be interesting to see how this turns out. The invitation to pray about it may not always yield the positive result agreement or acceptance. We are definitely living during an interesting time within the church.

[CA Steve]

I'm wondering how often this essay needs to be presented to the members so that critics will not be able to say that the Church hides its history. Every year? Every 4 years when D&C 132 is covered? Every decade ? As an opening lesson in Gospel Principles?

How about making it part of the missionary discussions and every time D&C 132 is covered.

 

In my opinion, when it is no longer uncomfortable to talk in church, in an adult setting, about any aspect of how the Church was involved in polygamy then we have talked about it enough. When it is just as easy to mention Joseph's wives as it is Brigham's, then we have talked about it enough.

[ALarson]

How about making it part of the missionary discussions and every time D&C 132 is covered.

 

In my opinion, when it is no longer uncomfortable to talk in church, in an adult setting, about any aspect of how the Church was involved in polygamy then we have talked about it enough. When it is just as easy to mention Joseph's wives as it is Brigham's, then we have talked about it enough.

I agree and well stated.

 

However, before this can become a part of the missionary discussions, the missionaries need to become knowledgeable on this topic.  I know of many who have been out in the field who were asked about Joseph's polygamy but had no response because they knew nothing or very little about it.  At least now many will at learn a little bit about it in seminary which will lead to them studying and learning more before they leave on their missions.

Edited August 31, 2015 by ALarson

[Buckeye]

 

I'm wondering how often this essay needs to be presented to the members so that critics will not be able to say that the Church hides its history. Every year? Every 4 years when D&C 132 is covered? Every decade ? As an opening lesson in Gospel Principles?

 

It should be part of the discussion as often as polygamy comes up. So at least for D/C 132. It should also come up when discussing the families of those who practiced polygamy. So when we discuss Joseph's family, we need to mention more than just Emma.

[Buckeye]

Very impressive ALarson. I must admit that I was dubious that such a lesson could be a net positive. You have an amazing (and amazingly brave) bishop.

[Calm]

I think a lot has to do with the type of relationship a bishop has with a ward. If there is a feeling he trusts the members (and isn't prone to micromanaging or secondguessing), there will be a more relaxed anticipation...they don't expect him to lecture them on what they should and shouldn't believe so less likely to interpret the experience that way...and a positive result imo is quite likely, well, as long as there aren't a ton of dogmatic members willing to step in and provide the lecture.

It was nice there there was a vote that showed a range of understanding so that people won't feel like they are unusual.

[Teancum]

Great summary ALarson. You have a brave bishop. I would love to see a similar discussion in my own ward.  I am not holding my breath though.  I think yours is a unique and limited situation.

[Teancum]

I'm wondering how often this essay needs to be presented to the members so that critics will not be able to say that the Church hides its history. Every year? Every 4 years when D&C 132 is covered? Every decade ? As an opening lesson in Gospel Principles?

 

Well how often do you think this info should be presented as well as when?  The Church asks for major commitments from its members and converts.   It seems to me that disclosure before asking for extraordinary commitment is ethical.  But then I am just a filthy skeptical apostate though I do still attend LDS Church services.

[strappinglad]

Well how often do you think this info should be presented as well as when?  The Church asks for major commitments from its members and converts.   It seems to me that disclosure before asking for extraordinary commitment is ethical.  But then I am just a filthy skeptical apostate though I do still attend LDS Church services.

I've thought long and hard on it . Here are some possibilities.

1. to atone for past omissions ,it should be one of the assigned topics each GC for the next couple of years. That way it can also be plagiarized by Duncan's HC and further the message.

2. It should be tacked on to the home teaching/visiting teaching message every December as part of Joseph's

elaborate birthday celebration.

3. As part of a rote blessing on the food prayer there could be a " and please forgive Joseph for..."

I can see I must get lessons on this from Brother Gui

Don't get me wrong, I think A Larsen and his bishop have done a good thing and the essay should be discussed with members so as to familiarize them with the past. There is , however, a point where self - flagellation is counter productive.

[Walden]

I'm wondering how often this essay needs to be presented to the members so that critics will not be able to say that the Church hides its history. Every year? Every 4 years when D&C 132 is covered? Every decade ? As an opening lesson in Gospel Principles?

I would guess it needs to be presented as often as it takes until there are no longer life-long members learning for the first time as adults that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, particularly considering how many lessons are given over teh years about the prophet. The fact that there are still adult members who were unaware of Smith's polygamy despite a lifetime of church attendance is the answer to your question.

[cinepro]

Fascinating story.  I'd offer to send these to your Bishop, but apparently he's already got a pair.