Discussing Polygamy Essay With My Ward, 5Th Sunday Lesson Experience

[JLHPROF]

It was very obvious that the most upsetting details are the number of wives Joseph had, the ages of them, and then that he married other mens' wives.  The angel with the flaming sword wasn't discussed much, but was mentioned by someone (I think it states it as only a "drawn sword" in the essay).

 

Perhaps the Bishop could follow up by daring to teach the doctrinal justifications given at the time of these "upsetting details" and then encouraging members to actually study and pray about the history and maybe come to terms with the beliefs and teachings that led to the history that troubles many.  That would really show the golden items pictured in Cinepro's post below.

 

 

Fascinating story.  I'd offer to send these to your Bishop, but apparently he's already got a pair.

 

 

 

 

 

One thing I meant to add above is that the Bishop asked if any of them knew the names of any of Joseph's plural wives (prior to now).  The name that they answered with was "Eliza R. Snow" and several of them added that they thought she was sealed to Joseph after his death.  Most indicated that they didn't know names, but only that they were older widows.

 

This is one of MY most troubling issues - that these great, knowledgeable, faithful, amazing women who are now at Joseph's side as eternal wives in the Celestial worlds receive no acknowledgement.  "Good and faithful" Emma gets both laud and pity whenever Joseph's life is discussed, but his other wives who couldn't even walk down the street with their husband are ignored.

Really gets me annoyed...

[carbon dioxide]

Good to see the bishop moving beyond the same topics we hear all the time.  I doubt my bishop will get into it but that is ok.   I think as the head of my household it is my responsibility to teach my kids on all this stuff so that they are informed and are able to handle it well.  I have never really had a problem with the whole polygamy thing whether how many wives Joseph had or the ages or even the polyandry part.  I have known since I was young that Joseph had more than one wife and as time has passed each additional bit did not bother me too much as it was not a sudden shock to me. 

[ALarson]

Perhaps the Bishop could follow up by daring to teach the doctrinal justifications given at the time of these "upsetting details" and then encouraging members to actually study and pray about the history and maybe come to terms with the beliefs and teachings that led to the history that troubles many.  

Well, as I stated before (post #6), the Bishop did keep "stressing how each member needs to study this on their own too, and pray about it".  I don't know if there will be any follow up lessons (other than when he teaches the other essays on polygamy).

 

What "doctrinal justifications" are you referring to?  

Edited September 1, 2015 by ALarson

[KevinG]

 

This is one of MY most troubling issues - that these great, knowledgeable, faithful, amazing women who are now at Joseph's side as eternal wives in the Celestial worlds receive no acknowledgement.  "Good and faithful" Emma gets both laud and pity whenever Joseph's life is discussed, but his other wives who couldn't even walk down the street with their husband are ignored.

Really gets me annoyed...

 

Yes and no.  While they could not be publicly acknowledged during Joseph's lifetime, their journal reports and subsequent histories are lauded by some for their independence and bravery.  Eliza Snow, the prophetess of Zion, is certainly recognized as significant.

 

Buy your gripe resonates with me.  I get very upset that we largely accept those engaged in serial monogamy (repeated divorce and remarriage) that harms women and children today, while many of us disavow, or even criticize those early Saints who lived the principle under commandment from God.  

 

As Brigham said, if we want the blessings of Abraham we must also accept the laws we are given, at least in faith.

[Buckeye]

Fascinating story.  I'd offer to send these to your Bishop, but apparently he's already got a pair.

 

 

 

I can only assume that these are the other seer stones used by the Joseph with the U&T. But then how did ALarson's bishop get them?

[cinepro]

I can only assume that these are the other seer stones used by the Joseph with the U&T. But then how did ALarson's bishop get them?

 

Sorry, you don't "get" them.  You're born with them.

[Buckeye]

Sorry, you don't "get" them.  You're born with them.

 

Cue the Lorena Bobbitt jokes.

[ALarson]

Delete (wrong thread) 

Edited September 1, 2015 by ALarson

[KevinG]

Sorry, you don't "get" them.  You're born with them.

 

They do need to go through the refiners fire before looking that polished.

[Thinking]

I have known since I was young that Joseph had more than one wife and as time has passed each additional bit did not bother me too much as it was not a sudden shock to me. 

 

For some of us each additional bit increased the shock value.

[KevinG]

What does that have to do with Joseph living polyandry?  As far as the record shows, he was not commanded to live polyandry.

 

The record shows a lot of things.  Including sealings to whole families and males, sealings for time and sealings for eternity being to different people.  Some relationships possibly sexual, others obviously not.

 

Claiming that polyandry wasn't commanded of Joseph because there was no written commandment to the church on the subject is arguing from ignorance.

 

If we are to teach this subject we must teach it with open minds and an understanding of the whole picture.  I have advocated Bushman's thorough treatment of the subject in Rough Stone Rolling as a good resource.

[ALarson]

Claiming that polyandry wasn't commanded of Joseph because there was no written commandment to the church on the subject is arguing from ignorance.

 

 

I deleted my post because I was on the wrong thread (I thought I was on the polyandry thread )

 

But, I'll respond since you did.

 

Stating that Joseph had to live polyandry when no record is given that God commanded it is arguing from ignorance.  Not the reverse.

[KevinG]

I deleted my post because I was on the wrong thread (I thought I was on the polyandry thread )

 

But, I'll respond since you did.

 

Stating that Joseph had to live polyandry when no record is given that God commanded it is arguing from ignorance.  Not the reverse.

 

Since I never stated he "had to live" polyandry then you should have no problem with it.

 

Try a more thorough understanding here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_book/Polyandry#cite_note-66

 

There is no evidence that the polyandrous sealings were conjugal.  In fact there are good reasons to think that most if not all were not conjugal.

[JulieM]

There is no evidence that the polyandrous sealings were conjugal.

Many would disagree with you on that. Even Hales states he believes or suspects that Joseph is really the Father of Josephine Sessions.

[ALarson]

Since I never stated he "had to live" polyandry then you should have no problem with it.

Great.  Then we agree.

[KevinG]

Many would disagree with you on that. Even Hales states he believes or suspects that Joseph is really the Father of Josephine Sessions.

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695226318/DNA-tests-rule-out-2-as-Smith-descendants.html?pg=all

 

That case is still outstanding, but no evidence exists yet to prove it.

[JLHPROF]

Yes and no.  While they could not be publicly acknowledged during Joseph's lifetime, their journal reports and subsequent histories are lauded by some for their independence and bravery.  Eliza Snow, the prophetess of Zion, is certainly recognized as significant.

 

Buy your gripe resonates with me.  I get very upset that we largely accept those engaged in serial monogamy (repeated divorce and remarriage) that harms women and children today, while many of us disavow, or even criticize those early Saints who lived the principle under commandment from God.  

 

As Brigham said, if we want the blessings of Abraham we must also accept the laws we are given, at least in faith.

 

I agree with you.

And a litte research on my part shows that in years past the Church has taught about Joseph's other wives.  It's not like the information was hidden away:

 

For example-

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/09/eliza-r-snow-first-lady-of-the-pioneers?lang=eng

 

The soul-moving mixture of sublime happiness and inexpressible grief was intense as she recalled the period in which she was married on July 29, 1842, and in which her husband, Joseph Smith, the Prophet of God, sealed his testimony with his blood. “I was sealed to the prophet, Joseph Smith, for time and eternity, in accordance with the celestial law of marriage which God had revealed, the ceremony being performed by a servant of the Most High—authorized to officiate in sacred ordinances. This, one of the most important events of my life, I have never had cause to regret.”

 

Now THAT is how all the wives of the prophet should be referenced.

and

Here - https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/12/the-newel-k-whitney-family?lang=eng

 

On 27 July 1842, the Prophet Joseph Smith recorded a revelation to the Whitneys on plural marriage. “My husband revealed these things to me; we had always been united, and had the utmost faith and confidence in each other. We pondered upon them continually, and our prayers were unceasing that the Lord would grant us some special manifestation concerning this new and strange doctrine. The Lord was very merciful to us; He revealed unto us His power and glory. We were seemingly wrapt in a heavenly vision, a halo of light encircled us, and we were convinced in our own minds that God had heard and answered our prayers and intercedings before Him.”¹⁰ In obedience to the command of the living prophet, Newel and Elizabeth Ann gave their daughter Sarah Ann in marriage to Joseph Smith.

 

They even taught the children that Joseph had wives other than Emma.

 

https://www.lds.org/friend/1986/10/eliza-r-snow?lang=eng

 

After searching for and receiving answers to her questions, Eliza was baptized a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on April 5, 1835. Shortly after her baptism, Eliza moved to Kirtland, Ohio, where she taught school and acted as governess to Joseph Smith’s children. On June 29, 1842, she and Joseph were sealed in marriage for time and eternity.

 

Now if only his other wives always got the same treatment...like Zina D. Huntingtons lds.org biography as the 3rd Relief Society president which neglects to list Joseph as her husband.

And if we could get better biographies than the one in "Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith" which limits the mention of his other wives to "As commanded by God, he also taught the doctrine of plural marriage" and treats Emma as his only wife.

 

I don't expect exhaustive 33+ wives completion, but a little more like the quotes above from the 70s and 80s and a little less of the limited view from the manual biography would be a good step in the right direction.

Edited September 2, 2015 by JLHPROF

[ALarson]

And a litte research on my part shows that in years past the Church has taught about Joseph's other wives.  It's not like the information was hidden away:

 

For example-

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/09/eliza-r-snow-first-lady-of-the-pioneers?lang=eng

 

Now THAT is how all the wives of the prophet should be referenced.

and

Here - https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/12/the-newel-k-whitney-family?lang=eng

 

They even taught the children that Joseph had wives other than Emma.

 

https://www.lds.org/friend/1986/10/eliza-r-snow?lang=eng

I think this is why when my ward members were asked if they knew any names of Joseph's wives they replied with "Eliza R. Snow".  Thanks for posting these links to older articles in the church magazines, JHPROF.  It's also great that the article on the Whitney's includes that Sarah Ann was sealed to Joseph (interesting that it was written by D. Michael Quinn too).

 

Now if only his other wives always got the same treatment...like Zina D. Huntingtons lds.org biography as the 3rd Relief Society president which neglects to list Joseph as her husband.

And if we could get better biographies than the one in "Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith" which limits the mention of his other wives to "As commanded by God, he also taught the doctrine of plural marriage" and treats Emma as his only wife.

 

I don't expect exhaustive 33+ wives completion, but a little more like the quotes above from the 70s and 80s and a little less of the limited view from the manual biography would be a good step in the right direction.

 

I completely agree.  Maybe with the essays slowly getting out to the members, this will change?